There is a NEW EARTH and lost people will not be dwelling on that earth. Don't you think it is a little stupid to have "kings' who reign over nobody??? These kings reign over the nations of the SAVED who dwell outside the city on the NEW EARTH.
All saints are not in the church as the "foundation" of the church is not even laid until NT times and the "first" that are "set in" the church are not OT saints but "apostles" - 1 Cor. 12:28/ Eph. 2:20
So not all saints are in the church and so what you are saying is clearly false. You have a system of ecclesiology that is unbiblical and it won't fit scriptures.
It is one thing to make a charge it is quite another thing to demonstrate your assertion. Care to try? BUT NOT HERE on this thread. Please go to that thread and see if you can overthrow the evidence. Let's return to the OP instead of trying to derail it.
Matthew 28:19-20 demands Landmarkism ecclesiology
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Nov 25, 2016.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
However, this has nothing to do with the OP which you have not even touched. Let's get back to the OP instead of trying to derail the thread. -
Squire Robertsson AdministratorAdministrator
My comment was not directed to you. It was directed at Yeshua1 (see his post #4 on this thread). The corrections were to his spelling. This isn't the first time.
And in answer to your question, I believe the position is:
The GC was given to local NT churches\assemblies be they landmark or non-landmark. -
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The above should have said contents of New Jerusalem, not church
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I wasn't intending to make any further contributions for a while, but this is so bad, that I can't let it pass.
And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honour into it.'
What does the glory of God illumine? Of what is the Lamb the light? The City; the New Jerusalem.
So where must the nations of the saved be to walk in its light? In the City!
Where do the kings of the earth bring their glory and honour? Into the City!
Is there anyone outside the City? Yes. 'But outside are the dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves or practises a lie' (Revelation 22:15). The nations of the saved are inside; the nations of the unsaved are outside.
Who are these 'kings of the earth'? We are, if we are Christians. We have received a kingdom. 'Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven' (Matthew 5:3). "And I bestow on you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one on Me" (Luke 22:29) 'If we endure, we shall also reign with Him' (2 Timothy 2:12). 'You are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood' (1 Peter 2:9). 'To Him who loved us .....and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father' (Revelation 1:5-6). See also Psalm 45:16; Romans 5:17; 1 Corinthians 4:8; Revelation 20:4; 22:5.
Back to my sabbatical. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
In Revelation 4-5 we are given a preview of things to come, heaven is opened and we see Christ enthroned with a green rainbow signifying the time of wrath has passed and he is ruling over all. We also see four beasts and twenty-four elders. The elders are also upon thrones and crowned ruling with Christ over a new creation wherein all bow their knees to Christ and praise his glory, all creation joins this praise. This is a preview of Revelation 21-22:3 and it is given as an encouragement to the seven congregations because of the terrible times that are to come between their day and that day (Rev. 6-19).
When Israel encamped at Mount Sinai, the thirteen tribes were given precise places to camp around the tabernacle. The totality is a picture of all God's elect in all ages. However, twelve tribes were divided into four divisions with a tribe as the leader of each division. The thirteenth tribe (Levi) was the immediate inner circle around tabernacle with Moses and Aaron. These four divisions had standards which are repesented by the four faces of the beasts and thus the beasts represent the twleve tribes in their four divisions. The thirteenth tribe under David was further divided into 24 divisions for service in God's house. They are represented by the 24 elders who ALONE ARE CROWNED.
The twelve tribes and their divisions represent the elect who do not serve in "the house of God" and they are the ones who will live outside the New Jerusalem WHO ARE NOT CROWNED and be ruled over by the thirteenth tribe which represent all the elect who served in 'the house of God" in both testaments (Old Testament faithful - 12 tribes of Israel; New Testament = 12 apostles) or the 12 gates in the New Jerusalem and the twelve foundations of the city The city is the dwelling place of the wife of Jehovah - the faithful among Israel and the bride of Christ - the faithful WHO ALONE ARE PICTURED AS CROWNED.
The "nations of the saved" are pictured by the four beasts who dwell outside the city on the new earth, and the crowned twenty four elders represent the faithful in the Old and NT who served in the House of God are the crowned who rule over the new earth and its nations and dwell in the city.
This is why during the NT period only baptized believing church members who are overcomers are promised to reign over the nations in Revelation 2-3 and dwell in the New Jerusalem. The seven churches are representative of the institutional "house of God" - the churches of Christ. These letters are about "works" and overcoming has nothing to do with salvation as Christ knows already the truly saved among them ("he that hath an ear to hear") and it is they who are being encouraged to overcome.
There is my answer! If you don't agree, open a new thread and address it, but this thread has to do with the Great Commission, which NONE OF YOU have dared address yet. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
There is more outside the city than the NEW earth. Gehenna is also outside the city and outside the new earth.
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The kings are Christians- all Christians. I gave you ten texts to support this understanding, and you did not engage with any of them. The glory they bring into the city is that which Christ has given them. "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one" (John 17:22). Their glory cannot be in the city unless they are also.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
How about attempting to deal with the OP? Or can you? -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Presbyterianism and all paedobaptists pervert the gospel of Christ by their mode and subject of baptism. The purpose of a symbol is to provide an explicit and exact VISIBLE FORM that conveys an intended truth. If one perverts the explicit and exact visible form they pervert the intended truth.
Charging me with breaking fellowship with the brethren over an external ordinance is as senseless as charging God with breaking fellowship with those he put to death in the Corinthian assembly for failing to discern the SYMBOLISM of the Lord's Supper as that was their very crime. And Paul rightly concluding what they were observing was not what they claimed (1 Cor. 11:20).
Charging me with dividing the brethren by refusing to recognize a COUNTERFEIT institution that calls itself the "church of Christ" is like charging the church at Thessalonica for excluding a "brother" for characteristic disobedience of Apostolic faith and order (that which is handed down to the churches by the apostles from Christ). And please don't give us that lame response that we are disfellowshipping any INDIVIDUAL brother by refusing to recognize their ordinances or their institution as New Testament as you cannot have "church" fellowship unless it is a "church" by NEW TESTAMENT DEFINITION not by Martin's definition or their definition.
Paedobaptism preaches "another gospel" by its perversion of both the mode and subject of baptism. And please don't respond with the garbage that all who preach another gospel must be lost as the churches of Galatia expose that false idea.
The very existence of a paedbaptist congregation as a professed church of Christ perverts the gospel of Jesus Christ by its very constitutency as it is PURPOSELY designed to include unregenerates as its primary membership thus reducing the metaphoric "body of Christ" to a body of unregnerates.
Moreover, you cannot find such a congregational body of unbaptized believers in scripture called a church by God's Word.
Moreover, you cannot find such a congregational body of comprised primarily by unregenerate infant membeship in scripture called a church by God's Word.
Moreover, both the precepts and examples in God's word forbid such a thing to be called "the church of Christ" or "the church of God" or a NT church.
Finally, true Christians found within the harlot (Rev. 18:4) are not found within either the metaphor of a "chaste virgin" (2 Cor. 11;2) now or in the metaphorical bride to come (Rev. 19:6-8) but will be found OUTSIDE the city upon the NEW earth is such great numbers they are called "NATIONS" of the "saved" as opposed to the fewer who comprise a "city" who in fact do rule over the nations just as a capital city now rules over a nation singular much less "nations" plural. The Christians that dwell outside on the New earth are vastly more in number ("nations") compared to those who will dwell inside the city. The idiotic interpretation you have presented that the "nations" and the "kings" are one in the same is easily debunked by the very language of the text as the text distinguishes between the two by calling some "kings" and others "nations" by the nations not bringing their own gloryin "into" the city but it being brought in by "their" kings. You must mishandle, pervert and spiritualize away the word of God when there is no contextual foundation for doing that.
BTW Jesus adopted this "bossing around" others in the world to come in the parable of the pounds (5 cities, 10 cities etc.). Jesus adopted this in the promise to the overcomers to "rule over the nations" in the age to come. What this consists of we don't exactly know, but we do know it is a form of rule over others in the new world. -
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Anyway, I have not advance the debate, what you call derailing, just cleared up apparently misunderstanding of what I said. I will start a new thread on the "contents of New Jerusalem", in the next day or two....if someone else hasn't done it already. See ya there brother.
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I have said repeatedly that all the saved from history are in New Jerusalem. There is no way to say I am inferring that no saved are present in New Jerusalem.
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The time is explicitly defined as occurring AFTER the CREATION of a new heaven and earth NOT NOW, NOT BEFORE -Rev. 22:1-2
The nations are further distinguished from those dwelling in the city in Revelation 22;3 where they have right not to 'eat" as do overcoming church members of the tree, but they have right to the "leaves" for their healing and the symbolism is clear.
In the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve were obedient they dwelt IN the paradise of God located on a newly created earth. They were SAFE. However, when they sinned, they sought to cover the shame of their disobedience by LEAVES and then were cast OUTSIDE that paradise to dwell. Nevertheless they found salvation OUTSIDE and thus dwelt OUTSIDE as "saved" persons.
Likewise, in the new heaven and earth. There are those who have remained faithful to the way of SERVICE while on earth as they served INSIDE the way designated way of service. Prior to the cross that was the way of the house of God, after the cross it was still through the way of the "house of God" (1 Tim. 3:15) and both Old and New Testament saints who remained faithful to God's way of service will be INSIDE the New Jerusalem in the age to come as a REWARD. Those saints in the Old Testament who were not faithful in their SERVICE to God will abide OUTSIDE on the new earth as the "saved" among the "nations." Their UNFAITHFULNESS can be described in the exact same terms as the disobedience of the lost as their are not dual expressions for disobedience simply because a person is saved but the same expressions used for the disobedience of lost persons. The seraphonecian woman who had great faith was nevertheless called a "dog" or one OUTSIDE the nation of Israel and its temple service. Lot would be described in terms of unfaithfulness as the last mention of him was as a drunkard and incest with his daughters but nevertheless he was saved according to Peter's record 2000 years after his death. Solomon died as a fornicator with 300 concubines and an adultery with 700 wives. Jacob was an habitual liar, etc., etc. So OUTSIDE the city dwell both saved and lost people whose disobedience is characterized in the same language except the saved dwell outside on the NEW EARTH while the lost dwell outside in GEHENNA. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Remember, I am talking about SERVICE not salvation.
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