Max Lucado.

That may be true, too. I don't see a big difference between the two.

Why does feeling fear make Him a "cringing coward"? How does feeling "dread" make Him any less so? Wouldn't the fact that He went to the cross willingly in spite of His fear or, in your case, dread, prove that He wasn't a coward?

Having read your posts for quite a long time now, one could say the same thing about you.

 

What is the basis for saying that Jesus was struggling with fear other than the sewage dump?

 

I think it is well known that Max Lucado like most Churches of Christ ministers hold to baptismal regeneration. If I'm not mistaken COC do not like the term baptismal regeneration though they do believe it. They also generaly hold to more of a Pelagian view of Original sin rather than a Arminian or Calvinist view.

Lucado does not fit with the normal Church of Christ and I hope he does represent 'movement of grace' in the Churches of Christ. I do not see how Lucado blasphemes the Lord Jesus Christ by saying

"Look closely through the shadowy foliage. See that person? See that solitary figure? What's he doing? Flat on the ground. Face stained with dirt and tears. Fists pounding on the hard earth. Eyes wide with a stupor of fear. Hair matted with salty sweat. Is that blood on his forehead? That's Jesus. Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. ... Does this look like the picture of a saintly Jesus in the palm of God? Hardly. We see an agonizing, straining and struggling Jesus. We see a 'man of sorrows.' We see a man struggling with fear, wrestling with commitments, and yearning for relief."

That actually is what I read in the Gospel accounts. No where does Lucado describe Jesus as a sinner. There is a danger among some Fundamentalists of diminishing the Humanity of Christ and forgetting He was not only Perfect God but Perfect Man. I wonder if the information on Lucada mentioned here is from David Cloud's website? which makes a habit of slandering people.

 

this Max character needs to get aquainted with the Christ of the Bible and stop creating his idea of Christ

Oh, I disagree. We have deified Christ to the point where it's blasphemous to think of him as human. Like he was Superman or Santa Claus or something.

Denying Jesus' humanness is as heretical as denying his divinity. Max Lucado, IMO, does neither.

 

Thanks for clearing it up for us. Since you seem to have the incarnation completely figured out, I will add your post as an appendix to my Bible. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

And I see people criticizing with no warrant an evangelical as a heretic. Now tell us, which is more laughable???

 

Two thumbs up on both accounts.


For those fundies who really want to get worked up, they should read Phillip Yancey's "The Jesus I Never Knew."

 

You get my two thumbs up too Kiffin

Now, I don't go to Max's book when I am studying or preparing to teach necessarily, because it is not a commentary, or a interpretive tool, but that is not its purpose. It is for the most part solid doctrine (can't speak for all of it, I have only read a couple books) and it is explained very clearly and in a picturesque manner, rather than in dry theologian speak, nothing wrong with that.

I mean, I read John Piper too, yet have some major rifts with him on doctrine. I don't see either as a heretic. As a matter of fact, I think God will take the Post-Trib guys up with the rest of us at the rapture

I have heard Max speak, he is a gifted orator, and does write a pretty turn of phrase. Fluffy, perhaps, Emotional? Definately, Heretical? I don't think so, I have heard more heretical comments in the Bible Versions Forum than you'll ever hear from M.L

JMHO

 

I've read most, if not all, of Lucado's books and find nothing "heretical" about any of them. His works may not be the "deepest" around. . .but they are certainly a good read!


In Him,
Grace

 

I have read many of his works. He has alot of good illustrations. I do think though that alot of his illustrations use alot of imagination and speculation. He is trying to tell the story as he thinks it might have happened. With that, I have no problem.

I do have problems with him taking liberty with Christ's experience on the cross. Implying that Christ feared anything is mindless rhetoric that is used to make people feel better about themselves. Hey, I am for people feeling better, just not at the expence of a biblical understanding of Christ.

Lucado is notable weak and evasive on doctrine for a reason. Given his pro-catholic stance, it is hard to call him a firm evangelical.

 

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. " Hebrews 4:15

 

... and that verse has nothing to do with what I said.

 

Preach what biblical mandate would be broken if Christ was fearful on the cross? I feel we can definately say he dreaded the cross, atleast when he was in the garden. Is it absolutely impossible that he was fearful, maybe when he asked why God had forsaken him. I am not trying to argue maybe I am missing something so please help me out.
Murph

p.s. although "8 hours one friday" by Max is one of my favorite books I don't agree with everything he does.

 

I always find it amazing how often Christians, especially conservative evangelical types, set up theological firing squads by forming a circle, aiming their rifles toward the center of the circle, and then yell "Fire!".

 

Murph, he is God. Does God fear anything? In an effort to "identify" with his humanity, people disregard his deity. You tell me how God can fear anything.

I see Christ telling an angry mod that he was in the temple daily teaching the word. He did not fear that mob.

I see Christ telling Pilate that his authority was given to him by God alone.

To say that he was ever fearful though is pure conjecture if not a more serious charge.

 

How do you interpret Jesus' passion in the Garden of Gethsemane just before He was betrayed?

 

When Christ feared, He did not fear them which could kill the body only. He feared Him who could destroy both body and soul in Hell.

The Holy Spirit neglected many aspects of Christ's physical pain, aspects of which contemporary preachers make a great fuss. The Holy Spirit focuses on the spiritual aspects and Christ's divinity.

"...yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." 2 Cor. 5:16.

 

False dichotomy. God does not "fear" anything but humans do. The Incarnate Son was both.

I also see the Son of God making Himself vulnerable, becoming dependent upon a mother, and agonizing in the garden. His humanity was as real as his deity. If he experienced the full gamut of human emotions, he experienced fear.

It is not our responsibility to demonstrate instances where Jesus showed fear. It is the responsibility of those who deny it to demonstrate how Jesus was completely human and yet did not experience a basic human emotion. What is more speculative to say he did not experience a basic human emotion and yet was completely human or vice-versa? The answer seems obvious.

 

First, of all, I don't recall writing that I was posting that verse in reply, or commenting on what you said.

SBCbyGrace, excellent post!