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Featured Michael the archangel - The Character That Will Stand [KJB]

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by One Baptism, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    [2] God's own people, His children, as a whole, are called “princes”, and thus Jesus is “Prince of princes” [Daniel 8:25 KJB], even “Prince of the Kings of the Earth” [Revelation 1:5 KJB], and thus Jesus/Michael is ruler over a whole spiritual nation of people, even as Satan/Dragon is “prince”, even ruler, over his own carnal nation:

    The Heavenly:

    Genesis 23:5 KJB - And the children of Heth answered Abraham, saying unto him,

    Genesis 23:6 KJB - Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.​

    Compare:

    John 8:39 KJB - They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    Galatians 3:29 KJB - And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Genesis 32:28 KJB - And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.​

    Side note, Jesus is Israel, and thus His children are also princes:

    Jesus is Israel:

    Matthew 2:13 KJB - And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

    Matthew 2:14 KJB - When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

    Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

    Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.​

    The Disciples of Jesus who keep His commandments are His children:

    Hebrews 2:10 KJB - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    Hebrews 2:11 KJB - For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

    Hebrews 2:12 KJB - Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

    Hebrews 2:13 KJB - And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.​

    ... sidenote section shortened for brevity ...

    See Isaiah 8:16 KJB, “my disciples” cited in the New Testament by Jesus in Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 14:14; Luke 14:26,27,33, 22:11; John 8:31, 13:35, 15:8 KJB.

    Now read Isaiah 56:1 KJB, as it talks about Jesus:

    Isaiah 56:1 KJB - Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.​

    Now read Isaiah 56:8 KJB, as it also talks about Jesus:

    Isaiah 56:8 KJB - The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.​

    Now read the fulfillment of Isaiah 56:8 KJB in John 10:16 KJB:

    John 10:16 KJB - And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.​

    Now go back and see the context of Isaiah 56:1,8 in Isaiah 56:2-7 KJB, in what would be done by Jesus and those who follow Him in the New Covenant:

    ... sidenote section shortened for brevity ...

    Thus, as it is written, Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Hebrews 2:10-18; Isaiah 8:8-20; Isaiah 56:1,8; John 10:16 and Isaiah 56:2-7 KJB are unbreakable and unanswerable.​

    Exodus 19:5 KJB - Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

    Exodus 19:6 KJB - And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    Psalms 82:1 KJB - A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

    Psalms 82:2 KJB - How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

    Psalms 82:3 KJB - Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

    Psalms 82:4 KJB - Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

    Psalms 82:5 KJB - They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

    Psalms 82:6 KJB - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    Psalms 82:7 KJB - But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

    Compare:

    Daniel 10:13 KJB - But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

    Psalms 82:8 KJB - Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

    Psalms 113:8 KJB - That he may set him with princes, even with the princes of his people.

    Isaiah 61:6 KJB - But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

    Isaiah 66:20 KJB - And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

    Isaiah 66:21 KJB - And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

    Ezekiel 28:17 KJB - Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

    Matthew 2:6 KJB - And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

    John 10:34 KJB - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    John 10:35 KJB - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

    1 Peter 2:9 KJB - But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    Revelation 1:6 KJB - And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    Revelation 5:10 KJB - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    Revelation 20:6 KJB - Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.​

    The Earthly:

    Daniel 10:20 KJB - Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

    Matthew 20:25 KJB - But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

    1 Corinthians 2:6 KJB - Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

    1 Corinthians 2:8 KJB - Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    Etc.​
     
  2. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    [3] Finally, Jesus/Michael is the archangel, the arch-prince, over all other archangels and angels the very princes of the Father, whether they are beings like the lesser arch-angel Gabriel, the covering cherub, or beings of other unfallen worlds, or beings, like prophets [Haggai 1:13; Malachi 3:1 KJB], priests [Malachi 2:7 KJB], kings [2 Samuel 19:27 KJB] and apostles, of this fallen world.

    Though there are many Generals in an army, there is a vast difference between the lead General/Captain and the many under generals of various ranks. For instance, though Jesus is directly called “Apostle” [Hebrews 3:1 KJB] of the Father, it does not make the other 12 apostles [Matthew 10:2; Luke 22:14; Revelation 21:14 KJB] equal in nature or status to JEHOVAH, but rather they are all mere under-apostles to the great Apostle, making Him, “one of the chief princes” [Daniel 10:13 KJB], for He is not ashamed to call us “brethren” [Hebrews 2:11 KJB], nor share His throne [Revelation 3:21 KJB] with those who overcome, even as He overcame.

    John 20:21 KJB - Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.​

    The word “angel”, in the King James Bible, can refer to the 'office' [not nature] of the Uncreated Creator God, whether the Son and/or Holy Spirit:

    Jesus, the very “messenger [angel] of the covenant”, Jesus is the “angel” [messenger], even “archangel” [highest messenger] of the Father:

    Genesis 48:16 KJB - The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

    Exodus 3:2 KJB - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

    Exodus 3:3 KJB - And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

    Exodus 3:4 KJB - And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

    Exodus 3:5 KJB - And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

    Exodus 3:6 KJB - Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

    Isaiah 42:19 KJB - Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?

    Isaiah 63:9 KJB - In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

    Daniel 3:25 KJB - He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

    Daniel 3:28 KJB - Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

    Daniel 6:22 KJB - My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths, that they have not hurt me: forasmuch as before him innocency was found in me; and also before thee, O king, have I done no hurt.

    Malachi 3:1 KJB - Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

    John 5:25 KJB - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Galatians 4:14 KJB - And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJB - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    Revelation 10:1 KJB - And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:​

    Jesus, though He is Uncreated and Eternal God, the Son and “fellow” of the Father, He is also the fellow of the created angelic hosts of Heaven, since He, as they, are in the “office” of messenger, though He by very nature and person is infinitely greater than they:

    Zechariah 13:7 KJB - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.​

    Compare:

    Matthew 26:31 KJB - Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

    Mark 14:27 KJB - And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

    Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Hebrews 1:7 KJB - And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

    Hebrews 1:9 KJB - Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.​

    Jesus, is also called the “Apostle” [one who is sent] of the Father:

    Hebrews 3:1 KJB - Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;​
     
  3. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    I pray that those responses are helpful in answering your question, from the scripture [KJB] itself:

     
  4. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Not the least bit helpful. You hope to cover up the gaping flaw in your theology with a vast flood of verbiage, which I have not the slightest inclination to read.
    However, the Scriptures (NKJV) state that Michael is 'one of the chief princes.' He is not Messiah the Prince' nor is he 'King of kings and Lord of Lords.' He is a chief angel or archangel, which is a high and exalted position no doubt, but he is not the Lord Jesus Christ.

    'But to which of the angels has He ever said, "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool"? Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?' (Hebrews 1:13-14). Indeed they are, Michael among them.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    As you will, brother Martin, but the evidence was provided to you, and if you would like the study in regards the Hebrews passage, you cited, see Chapter 10, section G Question 7, but if you will not read it, you do not actually want the answer, and ask for ulterior motive.

    Whether I reply with feast, or famine ...
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    If you think you have an answer, produce it here, concisely. That is the purpose of a discussion forum, not for someone to dominate it with page after page of scriptural non sequiturs.
     
  7. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    I not only have the answer, but shared it in the study provided in the link near the beginning.

    However, please allow me to try to answer you, in charity (1 Corinthians 13 KJB) by asking a few questions, each in turn.

    Is Jesus Christ (the person of the Son of the Father), ever designated as an "angel" in the KJB?
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I have no intention of playing Twenty Questions with you. I'm sure you're quite aware that both in Hebrew (malak) and in Greek (angelos) the word for 'angel' is the same as the word for 'messenger.' However, I did look back at some of your other posts, and see two non sequiturs as follows:
    The Lord Jesus neither was nor is a High Priest of the Levitical priesthood; He is a 'Priest forever after the order of Melchizadek' (Psalm 110:4 etc.). He is therefore in no sense a colleague of the various high priests of the Temple.
    Daniel 10:13 describes Daniel as 'one of the chief princes.' He is not described as being an 'arch-prince over all other archangels.' The natural description, if we decide to equate 'princes' and 'archangels,' is that he is one of the chief angels, along with Gabriel and presumably some others, but no higher than they.
    'But to which of the angels has [God] ever said, "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool"? Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?' (Hebrews 1:13-14).
     
    #28 Martin Marprelate, Aug 3, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is God almighty, and he is NOT Michael!
     
  10. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    It was 1 question, brother Martin, for the moment, in the light of maybe 2-3 more in following. It is how conversation between two persons, whom are supposed to be loving brothers in Christ Jesus, takes place. However, if you see fit to continue to utilize exaggeration, then as you will. I am sorry, we could not come to the same conclusion scripturally [KJB] and fulfill the prayer of Christ Jesus in John 17 KJB. If you change your mind, in future, perhaps we can try again.
     
  11. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    The Deity of Jesus, his "almighty" ("all power") power, his eternal being as the Son of the Father, etc., is not once doubted in the OP study, but proved again and again from the scripture [KJB] therein.

    As to the second portion, in regards Jesus being Michael, it too was thoroughly demonstrated from those same scriptures. Not only from those, but even futher evidence came in the form of documented historical positions of those of the earliest and later persons, including the great reformers, like Luther, Melanchthon, Geneva Bible commentators, and many others, who translated the scriptures, and were thoroughly studied in them.

    Therefore, by your asserted position, are you saying that the "traditional" theological position of Roman Catholicism is the correct position in regards Michael not being the Son of God, and that the Council of Trent (Jesuits), which totally anathematized and repudiated the reformational, even the scriptural, position, that Michael is the Son of God, is the true and correct position instead?

    If not, what scriptural [KJB] basis do you make such a statement, and have you considered the linked study which would address directly the concern? Or what text/s do you think would sustain the statement of your position, that has not been considered in the linked study, and let us go to it immediately, that we may be of one heart and mind in the matter.
     
  12. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Does Micheal support abortion the murder of children?
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Before God came to earth as Jesus, the Second person of the trinity was not Michael, but God the Son, the Word, and while here was Jesus, and after He arose, was still same Jesus!
     
  14. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    The Son of God has many titles/names/designations in scripture [KJB], even as both the Father (Ancient of Days; Daniel 7:9,13,22 KJB, etc) and Holy Spirit (another Comforter; John 14:16 KJB, the Spirit of Truth; John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13, etc.) do. Each are even associated with the word "angel" [see John 12:29; Revelation 18:1; Galatians 4:4 KJB etc], as with a message, a speaking, a word, etc. This was demonstrated in the Michael the Archangel study, section Appendix 3 - The Many Names And Titles Of The Son Of The Father.

    Is not Jesus also called "Emmanuel/Immanuel" (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23 KJB)?

    Is not Jesus also called "the voice of the LORD God" (Genesis 3:8 KJB)?

    Is not Jesus also written as the Aleph-Tav (Alpha-Omega) of Genesis 1:1 Hebrew?

    Is not Jesus also the "ladder" of Jacob (Genesis 28:12; John 1:51 KJB)?

    Is not the word "Michael" (H4317) made up of H4310, H3588 & H410, of which the same root words found in Psalms 71:19 KJB "O God, who is like unto thee"; Micah 7:18 KJB "Who is a God like unto thee ...", etc, all of which apply to God, even the Son of the Father? See also Psalms 77:13 KJB, etc. Is He not the "man of war" (Exodus 15:3 KJB), the very Captain of the Father's Host, see Exodus 15:11 KJB "Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders [pele', H6382, see also Psalms 77:11,14, 78:12, 88:10,12; Isaiah 9:6, 25:1, 29:14; Daniel 12:5-6]"?

    Is not Jesus the "fellow" of the Father (Zechariah 13:7 KJB)?

    Is not Jesus the "express image" [charakter] of the Father (Hebrews 1:3 KJB)?

    Who then is like unto the Father, which is what the name Michael signifies?

    Please realize that every time the devil (Satan, accuser) faces off against the Son of the Father, he must face the question in the character of the Son, Who is like unto God [the Father]?, and thus since Satan is called "serpent" in Genesis 3:1 KJB, who was "more subtil than any beast of the field", that scripture [KJB] says [Revelation 13:4 KJB], "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?", and thus even from Alpha to Omega [Genesis to Revelation, the whole word], we see the Image of God in contrast with the Image of the Beast. Michael vs Dragon.

    Does one name/title/designation of the Son of the Father negate the others? Of course not.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus NEVER was Michael, as that is JW heresy, as He was and is the Eternal Son of God period!
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus and Michael are two separate and distinct persons in the Bible!
     
  17. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Actually the Jehovah's Witnesses [WTS] borrowed the reformation theology [Luther, Melanchthon, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, non-conformists, Calvinists, non-Calvinists, Jews, Adventists, Seventh-day Adventists, etc], and twisted it and returned half of it back unto Romanism [making Michael, nothing but a created being, - this is the heresy].

    Is not Jesus called "David my servant" [Ezekiel 34:23,24, 37:24,25 KJB]?
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    At the second coming, Jesus AND Michael shall be there!
     
  19. AwesomeMachine

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    I appreciate all the work you did to prepare your thesis. I think you should summarize the main points in an abstract. I read about the first 100 pages. It's worthy of note that Daniel is not a historical figure, nor is the book of Daniel actual history. Your choice of Bible translation is curious, because the KJV is translated from the least reliable sources of any Bible still in widespread use.

    If you actually knew what you are talking about, you wouldn't need to quote the Bible in every reference to it. I suggest you use a few different translations, because the KJV is a direct translation of the first Roman Catholic Bible. Many Bibles today are translated from the original sources, which weren't even discovered until centuries after the KJV was written.

    You're also making alphabet soup in your head. You don't need to analyze every single word, especially not with the KJV, because the translators made no effort to translate words used in similar contexts the same way throughout the book. What you're actually trying to do is establish your authority by sheer volume of copying and pasting, and then slip in just a tiny bit of deceit; like putting cyanide in food.

    Jehovah Witnesses: Religious movement which expects the imminent return of Jesus. Jehovah's witnesses believe in a one-person God. No Trinity. Jesus is the first thing God created (as Michael the Archangel)

    The Gruppo di Ricerca e Informazione Socio Religiosa of the Milan Roman Catholic Dioceses declared in a convention in May 2011 that the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses is incompatible with Roman Catholic doctrine, part of which is the Holy Bible.

    Just relax a little. You're strung up too tight. You're trying to force something to work that just doesn't. Most of what pertains to angels is not even in the Bible. But, for what it is, you did a good job. You might do better if you begin with a religion that has not been condemned as heresy.

    That's always a red flag. JW will be gone as quickly as it came. People will eventually figure out what's really going on.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus was/is the greater David, the forever ruling King over the line of David, but He is NOT Michael!@
     
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