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Mid Trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Oct 1, 2005.

  1. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    AMEN! I'm with you, MB! :thumbs:

    skypair
     
  2. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Just like Laodicea! They were
    "spewed out" at the rapture. What did Jesus tell them" "BUY OF ME..." Same as the wise told the foolish virgins -- "go and BUY...!!!" BUt know what? They went and bought and thought there should be a midtrib or prewrath rapture -- they "knocked at the door!" What "door?" Rev 4:1 -- the "Door ... opened in heaven!"

    In Revelation, it is burning during the trib. Some will "overcome" the trib and will, Rev 2:26, and 3:21, be saved.

    . Laodicea is exhorted to have their gold tried in fire. Purest gold is refined with the hottest fire.

    Phillly has nothign negative against it, either.

    Definitely not. The tribulation is for refining Israel, but all people will be "compelled" to believe God or AC.

    Maybe but that is not the comparison being drawn here. Look to Mormonism or the liberal churches for this church.

    Oh yeah!

    You seem to know more than I do here.

    Sometimes we feel like this when we are flat out wrong, Palatka. Ex: cults feel this way.

    I think so far as studying judgment beginning at the house of the Lord," we need to first study what Jesus said of Philadelphia in Rev 3:10 -- "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." I don't think it gets any clearer that this church will be taken out before the tribulation. Looking a those OT verses is not much help as it is, after all, Israel who is being spoken to.

    skypair
     
  3. Palatka51

    Palatka51 New Member

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    We can't have a discussion of Scripture without name calling? I have given scripture that lines up to this subject. I have honored everyones posts. You shouldn't be so angry with me if you are so sure of escaping. If you are correct then we both shall be changed on that very same day. Christ is my Savior, I long to see Him. I want to hold Him. I will endure persecution if that is my road. I don't want anyone to follow me. I want to show them Christ.

    Does the Bible say that "Judgment must begin at the House of God?"

    Am I speaking an untruth if I answer yes? 1Peter chapter 4.

    The House of God is not the Mormons. Not even close, Satan is Jesus' brother in their eyes. No one that lowers Jesus in any form is of the House of God.

    Look I am not going to get into it tonight nor likely tomorrow. I will come back here to lay out my heart with more detail regarding these Churches of Asia.
     
  4. RevJWWhiteJr

    RevJWWhiteJr New Member

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    The Great Escape

    Luke 21:36
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    I believe in an escape.
    This is the reason I believe in the escape. If Jesus didn't mean it. Why did he say it, inside the teaching describing that very time.

    Every other interpretation of every other passage of scripture must agree with this verse. The scripture agrees with itself if left up to speak for itself.

    But he also details that a person must be found worthy of that escape. The reason many Christians believe the Church will HAVE TO go through the Great Tribulation period is because the largest portion of the church will go through the first half of the Great Tribulation period due to disobedience, unbelief, and adultery committed against her Bridegroom. Between the fifth and sixth seal all tribulation saints will have given their lives for their faith in Jesus then resurrected at the recording in Revelation of the sixth seal. But there is no "alive and remain/caught up" event recorded in the middle of the Great Tribulation.

    And by the way. The letter to the church of Laodicea of Revelation, when making reffrence to the spewing her out of the mouth of Jesus, that is not figurtive as some believe. It is not an illustration in type. It is more literal than anyone in our time has understood to date, and each one of us hold the proof in our hands. In my book the process is called Divine Exclusion. There is one whole chapter on that subject.
    RevJW
     
    #84 RevJWWhiteJr, May 2, 2008
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  5. RevJWWhiteJr

    RevJWWhiteJr New Member

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    Works

    James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    Any notion that works plays a part in salvation OR the Escape is sadly mistaken. Works in and of themselves do nothing. They are simply a visual or physical manifistation and representation of our faithfulness to God through obedience. A person can DO works for works and rewards sake and receive nothing from God. A sincere heart out of a loving obedience to God is the only thing accepted by him.

    True works show faith.
    Bro. Chip
     
  6. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    The underlined is "spot on," as they say.

    But the virgin, talents, and sheep parables line up perfectly with Mt 13 and here's how: The virgins parallel the "mustard tree" which appears and disappears from the "storyline" about the "sower" growing wheat/Israel.

    The woman with the "leaven" does not parallel BUT represents the "false harvest" of AC where barley/Gentiles + wheat/Jews = "meal."

    What follows this one verse parable is a parallel account to the talents/Jews and sheep/trib Gentiles -- the Jews living (wheat from tares) and dead but resurrected (treasure hid in the field) are judged followed by the Gentiles dead but resurrected (pearl of great price) and living (the fish in the net). But you are right -- for many the KoH parables are 1) tales with some moral in view and 2) not viewed as describing dispensations (which notion they reject).

    Laodicea and Thyatira were mentioned in one post. Each are supremely significant concerning the teachings of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

    But, of course, the time for repentance and avoiding the GT is pretrib. Repenting over the world is called "overcoming" and truly requires us to know which "world"/age is in view. IN this case, the "overcomers" have a MK destiny in Christ's earthly kingdom where He them "power over the nations" to rule with a "rod of iron." These certainly do not appertain to heavenly Jerusalem.

    skypair
     
  7. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    And again -- this is dealing with Israel who were under threat from Babylon.

    And even the fact that God never changes doesn't help your case because He has dealt TOTALLY differently with the church, His "heavenly people," than with Israel, His "earthly people."

    skypair
     
  8. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Actually, 2 per 1Cor 15:24 when Christ delivers UP His kingdom to the Father. Where it appears in scripture is Rev 20:11 and not all that apparent. But when John sees the GWT and the earth vanishes away, that is the rapture of MK believers to heaven while God "recreates" the earth into His own dwelling place and kingdom! That still maintains your other points though.

    Actually, IMO the 5th seal martyrs appear to be "left behind church" converts martyred as AC, who begins his kingdom in the WESTERN half of revived Rome "eats the flesh" of the converts from within the "harlot" church, Rev 17:16.

    Notice this about the 5th seal martyrs -- they are still unaware that Christ has to bring in the other "fold," Israel, and so ask "How long?"

    I feel then that the ones in Rev 7:9-17 are the "fellowservants" of those in 6:9 and most of them are Jewish converts.

    And I notice one other thing from this and other verses which I mean to investigate more fully but the book of The Revelation seems to be the revelation of Christ at the end but also the revelation of the Lamb to Israel throughout the trib -- which is what we find in 7:14. IOW, all this time that Christ is with His bride in heaven, the "Lamb" is seen doing His duties.

    Which corresponds to the fact that ours will be "fine linen, clean and white" whereas these appear to be fairly plain.

    (I also am writing this down in a book, but despair of finishing before the rapture :praying: )

    skypair
     
  9. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    It was not intended as name calling but as a caution. Many young Christians (again, not you necessarily) are not knowledgeable enough to recognize false teachers come in privily, Gal 2:4. I mention this regarding prewrath for 2 reasons: 1) It matches the warning about Jewish legalists in Galations in that prewrath ties us into the 70th week of Daniel with Israel (the "week" being for God's people and the holy city). 2) IMO it IS false.

    Clearly. I guess you didn't like my explanation, eh?

    Good -- I have guests coming to town this weekend so I look forward to Monday! :wavey:

    skypair
     
  10. RevJWWhiteJr

    RevJWWhiteJr New Member

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    The Church Age and Seven Churches of Revelation

    I make point of this next detail because of the mention in an earlier post of (MK). I am assuming MK is a reference to the Millennial Kingdom. All of the information supplied to us for each of the seven churches is intended to be directed to all believers within the Church Age, with special emphasis on the generation which will witness the events being described. In point of fact, the scripture gives us no indication this is not true, and every piece of evidence found suggests it to be correct.

    Revelation 1:1
    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    The phrase “shew unto his servants” is obviously referring to the present recipients of the information in question, which would be the Church of the first century. The seven churches named in chapter one stand in illustration for the physical Church as a whole. This would constitute the physical application of the message to the Church as a whole in John‘s day, which would be applied at the time of the delivery of the message.

    But the phrase “things which must shortly come to pass” suggests a portion of the Church that would witness first hand the events that will be described. Since the events that are detailed in the text of John’s record will not take place until the end of the Church Age and therefore remain unseen by the existing Church of the first century, it is intended to be understood that the last generation of believers before the end of the Church Age are to be accepted as recipients as well.

    This would constitute the spiritual application of the message to the Church across time. It would demand the application of all information in the letters to the seven churches to be directed to the entire Church throughout its history with special emphasis of the close of that history involving the last generation of believers making up the modern Church of today.


    From the perspective of what is called Dispensationalism, which refers to the belief that God interacts with his creation through stages or ages in history, the seven churches of Revelation represent more than what they appear in the physical. This belief stems from elements mentioned in the letters to the churches of which they themselves could not physically take part, because they simply would not survive until those stages of history. This leads to the understandable conclusion they are representative of something more than simply the literal and physical churches of Johns’ day.

    It is believed the illustrations and teachings that they are and possess extend through the whole of history to reach even beyond the modern world we refer to as today. This would allow them to be applied in principle throughout the entirety of the Church Age and into the Great Tribulation itself. I believe this conclusion to be correct.

    Jesus has singled these seven churches out because each in their physical condition singularly resemble the stages the actual Church of God has progressed through during the Church Age. The era in question is the span of time from the birth of the Church, (the day of Pentecost, Acts 2) until the “second time” the Lord will appear “unto them that look for him” (the day of our being caught up and gathered by the Lord Jesus himself, 1stThessalonians 4:16-17 and Hebrews 9:28 ) which will initiate The Day of The Lord known to us as The Great Tribulation.

    Pre-Tribulational scholars believe the last two or possibly three phases of the progression described will extend to the close of the Church Age. From historical records related to the Church and the condition of the Church as a unit today, I would also not totally disagree with that assessment. However, there is a third illustration that has been overlooked.

    The state in which the churches of Revelation find themselves that Jesus is bringing to their attention also exists in each and every believer today individually. If any Christian wishes to know where they stand in their fellowship with God, (and each should) all that is required is to study the seven churches of Revelation. In doing so you will expose the existing quality of your own fellowship, (or lack thereof) between you and your Bridegroom that is contained inside the descriptions set forth by Jesus himself.

    Each, save one, was given a condemnation by the Lord for that which was lacking within their relationship and how to correct it. Each, save one, was given a commendation concerning the faithful service it had performed within their relationship and how to maintain or improve it. The Church of today is subject to the same rigorous standards set forth by Christ during his ministry which were in turn expanded upon in the Olivet Discourse. Those standards were then painstakingly described in brutal detail of chapters two and three of Revelation in the form of directives to the Church, along with the consequences of failure to comply.

    The modern Church is severely lacking in its fellowship with its Bridegroom and needs to take a serious look at the seven churches, for within their combined example is healing for the Church as the Bride of Christ.

    In conclusion, the seven churches of Revelation are representative of three things.

    1. They were literal physical churches of Johns’ day of which six had varying degrees of problems within their structure which were hindering their fellowship in the Lord. Some of these problems were even being denied by the hierarchy of the Church, causing a movement toward the heretical. Serious consequences were to result if repentance was not established within those churches.
    John’s mission was to document the information provided to him from the Lord, for the purpose of informing the churches of their disobedience thereby allowing them the opportunity to repent of their sins. If executed, this would of course heal their fellowship in the Lord and put them back on the path of righteousness. Failure to comply would result in reception of the penalties established and set forth by Jesus.

    2. The seven churches of Revelation represent the stages or phases the Church as a whole has experienced over the course of its lifetime throughout history. We can look back through the historical record and establish the correlation documented by John in the book of Revelation. This has been sufficiently documented in many modern works by several of our best Evangelical Christian authors. The lesson for the modern Church to learn, is to use history as a guide so that we as individual churches may avoid the mistakes made by the Church as a whole throughout that history.

    3. The most critical lesson to learn is the spiritual. The seven churches of Revelation are a representation of each and every believer today. The conditions recorded in the churches of Revelation are present in our lives as individual Christians, personally. A look at chapters two and three reveal all the varying fellowships or lack thereof that are possible between us and our Bridegroom. If we lack in fellowship we will suffer in our own future the same consequences that are documented in the seven churches. Some of those consequences are severe in the extreme.

    However, there is no evidence inside the letters to the seven churches that any information contained in them is to be understood to be directed to the Millennial Kingdom that will be set up and ruled by Jesus Christ after his physical return in Power and Great Glory. (a k a: Glorious Appearing).
     
    #90 RevJWWhiteJr, May 2, 2008
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  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    We are overcomer’s in Christ, and not in our selves. We over come the world because of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Our righteousness cannot over come anything because, it has no power in of it self. We wear the Righteousness of Christ because He is living out our life for us if we are in submission to Him. If we are in submission to Him we are saved if we do not submit we are only fooling our selves. Man doesn't do good works because of reward but because of Love for our Lord and Savior. Salvation is not about "do this and you'll have that". Salvation is about the Love of God and sharing it with everyone we meet.
    True you didn't, but you did say in post 74.
    Well He certainly isn't delaying His coming because He wants us to get our act together. That Idea is totally unsupported
    I can only assume you meant just before the wrath because you seem to have expressed a belief in a prewrath rapture which is mid trib. What you haven't seen is that the great white throne judgment seat is in heaven not on earth.
    Scripture clearly states He will spew them out of His mouth because of there lack of repentance.
    There is no fire of tribulation found in scripture. but since you brought up judgment. The great white throne judgment is not about sin but about our good deeds. It isn't about Salvation or deliverance from wrath but about receiving our reward what ever that may be. The charges of sin will not even be mentioned because they have all been forgiven when we submitted to the righteousness of God. If by chance we have not submitted there will be no second chances and the great white throne is still in Heaven until after the tribulation.
    The only time a judge warns us is in His court. You have misread the letters to the churches
    Those of Noah's generation weren't believers in God. Noah preached to them to no avail, scripture says so. How is it you see them like they are a representation body of Christ. Not everyone who say's "Lord Lord" are really in submission to Him.
    MB
     
  12. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    I think this is a very good point to be made regarding Christians who have been around awhile and for them to teach to the younger ones. :jesus: The true church is a great leveler of the ground around the cross that keeps us from getting off on in the wrong theories and raising our stature above Jesus'. I think your point is well grounded in Eph 4:13.

    I don't think we throw that blanket over all the churches or Church, JJ. Thyatira/Catholicism, Sardis/Reform, and Laodicea/JW, Mormon, ChrisSci, Episcopal, etc. -- yeah. I think you have to be more specific on this particular point because there is a Philadelphia today and she does "keep the word of His patience."

    [/quote]3. The most critical lesson to learn is the spiritual.[/quote] And I'm going to lobby for a 4th (that used to be the third) -- the lesson that certain churches/denominations have the same flaws exhibited in the 7 churches and often came to such because of the phases you mention (ex: Ephesus/early churches rejected the Nicolaitans in lieu of councils but Purgammum didn't preferring popes, magesterium, etc.).

    skypair
     
  13. Palatka51

    Palatka51 New Member

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    All emboldening mine.

    Nice to have been taken to your woodshed then and your opinion is noted. You have indeed resorted to name calling in the guise of "(again, not you necessarily)"and "Sometimes we feel like this when we are flat out wrong, Palatka. Ex: cults feel this way." I hereby bow out of this discussion. I can have serious discussion if only scripture is used, personal attacks are uncalled for.

    In all of this just remember what the Bible says. Judgment will begin at the House of God. His woodshed is the tribulation of the Saints. He loves and chastises. Paul, James, Peter and John have said it and I believe it.

    Have a good day brothers and I'll see all of you when our Lord calls us home, either by death or by air. I love each of you and hope that it is reciprocated.

    In all humbleness;

    Mel
     
  14. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Oh stop! :BangHead: If you are not "ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. " (1Pet 3:15) then you won't be doing what God commands, now will you?

    It is wonderful how this salutation rolls naturally off the tongues of the truly humble, isn't it, Mel?

    If you were truly offended that I might think you a young Christian when you are not, I apologize. I won't try to warn you anymore as if I were my "brother's keeper" or as if I would "share ye one another's burdens." I don't want you to come back and "pour your heart out" about the churches if it wasn't/isn't in your heart to do so.

    skypair
     
  15. nunatak

    nunatak New Member

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    I hope the rapture happens before the trib, so I guess that makes me pretrib.
     
  16. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Now you're talking!!! I understand that every prewrather I've ever debated with has that hope. It is called the "blessed hope" in scripture because we believe it will come without ever having personally witnessed it yet. "Blessed faith" would involve some kind of "sight" whereby we were assured that we would experience it in our lifetime.

    skypair
     
    #96 skypair, May 5, 2008
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  17. Palatka51

    Palatka51 New Member

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    I have done so.

    You have read.

    We shall see.

    God will get the glory.
     
  18. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    I take it...

    ...JWWhite is on "sabbatical" somewhere. I really was enjoying his comments and hope he hasn't left. We need a good airing of prophetic things around this board.

    skypair
     
  19. RevJWWhiteJr

    RevJWWhiteJr New Member

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    Yes, I am still close by, observing from afar so to speak.

    Several posts have contained an excess of information that in my opinion is unrelated to the comments being made of and/or connected to them. I believe the context of all scripture is found within the plain text wording of the passage itself. In essence, God meant what he said, and said what he meant. His Word needs no help from us in relation to the process of interpretation. It will interpret itself, when allowed the opportunity to do so.

    Most or all will agree with this statement on the surface but will still also disagree with each other on what it says. This has been a fascination to me my entire ministry.

    Here is another reason I believe in the Escape of the Bride of Christ as described by Jesus.

    Example : Several mentioned Lot.
    Some believe Lot to be an example of the Church in one respect. Being removed from Sodom before its destruction in illustration of the Church being removed before the Great Tribulation. At first glance this seems reasonable, even plausible, but there will be no destruction of the world at the time or immediately after the escape. And the scripture says of that day when mentioning Lot,

    Luke 17:26-30
    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (The wicked).

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. (The wicked).
    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    The son of man will not be revealed until the end of the Great Tribulation when he “cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him“. (Revelation 1:7). I think all are in agreement on this premise.

    Luke 17:30-36
    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. (At the end of the Great Tribulation Period).

    But, when the Lord lays out the time of the escape, the passage explains it will take place before “the day” or the Great Day of the Lord (Great Tribulation). In That Night. The night always precedes the day in the scripture due to the culture. It also agrees with the teaching of it taking place as a thief in the night.

    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (In that Night, before the day of the Great Tribulation)

    We can see this exampled all the way back to the week of creation itself. In the which the evening (or night) proceeded the morning (or day) of the same day.

    When positioned into its rightful place inside its correct context in regards to “the day of the Lord” or the Great Tribulation Period, “in that night” would refer to a prior event before the activities of the Great Tribulation itself in teaching and in its location, through position and description. And in truth Jesus himself gives us a glimpse of this concept in one passage when teaching on his return.

    Mark 13:35-37
    35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
    36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
    37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

    Jesus is actually letting us know when the carrying away of the Bride is going to occur in relation to the Great Tribulation Period. Nowhere in scripture are we given dates or even specific event markers that would enable us to determine the exact time the “caught up” event will take place, but here we are given enough information, in accompaniment with support passages to know it will occur before “the day” of the Great Tribulation.

    Each one of the references Jesus lists are hours of darkness. The time of darkness before “the light of day”. Even the time mentioned of “in the morning” is before the rising of the sun as can be seen in the gospels in the record of the morning of the resurrection which is also absolutely appropriate due to the subject matter.

    John 20:1
    1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

    Luke 24:1
    1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

    Mark 16:2
    2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

    Matthew 28:1
    1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

    All of these references to that morning (and all Jewish mornings concerning the day) would confirm, very early in the morning the first day of the week, while it was yet dark at the rising of the sun just as it began to dawn “in” that day, Mary Magdalene came with the other women to the sepulcher.

    Every piece of information we can glean from the scripture supports (where it does not out right confirm) the Rapture of the Bride of Christ being a Pre-Tribulational event, and that event having connected to it conditions of inclusion.

    Therefore, we all need to remain watchful for we do not know when the master of the house is going to arrive, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning. Otherwise upon his abrupt and unexpected arrival he finds us asleep and unprepared. And what he has said through his disciples he intends to be received by us all, Watch. RevJW
     
    #99 RevJWWhiteJr, May 6, 2008
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  20. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Not "afar" from me! You're just 68 minutes up the road! :laugh:

    Your imagery of "night" is valid to me. But where you seem to be applying it is not. You seem to say the thief comes at "midnight"/midtrib (hence the OP title) whereas I think He comes the night that begins the 7th day of creation -- the end of the 6,000th year. As you say, night begins each day of creation but not at midnight. Have I misconstrued you?

    For instance, don't you equate Lot's escape with Rev 3:10 -- before the judgment come unto all the earth rather than it preceding the GT or wrath of God or the 2nd coming? Additionally, don't you find some of those scriptures addressed to Israel who needs to be ready for the 2nd coming VS. some are directed toward the church who needs to be ready for the pretrib rapture, Mt 24:43, Mt 25:1-13??

    Yeah, but now you are using the same argument that you rejected from prewrath. Sure, it's before the GT. But it is also before the trib.

    I think another parallel (to Jesus resurrection) would be Peter's temptation. I believe that he, James, and John represent 3 types of end times "Christians." 1) Peter the "Christian" who is left behind and doesn't repent, 2) James a type of left behing "Christian" who repents but is martyred, and 3) John who is a type of believer who is raptured pretrib. I mean, if you wanna run parallels, nothing beats this one!! Peter is tested 3 times (in the trib they are Satan, AC, and fp tests -- in the parables they are 3 measures of leaven in Mt 13:33) who when the cock crowed thrice "mourned" as "all the earth shall mourn!" (There's some other interesting parallels in the story but this will give you a notion of where I would go with the Peter parallel.).

    Anyway, great to see you back. Don't he "put off" that others have different ideas. We're all just learning here and you've given us some good stuff to think about.

    skypair
     
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