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Mid Trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Oct 1, 2005.

  1. Darrenss1

    Darrenss1 New Member

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    I've not read Paul ever refer to Jesus being Israel, rather of the lineage of Israel, Judah, David..etc

    Israel the natural branches was cut off because of their unbelief, your characterization of Paul including Jesus as Israel is more than presumptuous, it just doesn't fit from what I can see.


    The root is God.
    11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

    Israel was cut off from the natural tree grown from the root and will be grafted into their own tree eventually.

    Gentiles were of the wild olive tree, their branches broken off and grafted into the good olive tree.

    Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

    Ok so how will it effect my view of the rapture and end times events?

    Darren
     
    #121 Darrenss1, Aug 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2009
  2. grainofwheat

    grainofwheat New Member

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    You tell me who the "them" is in verse 11 :17 ?
    We the Gentiles [wild olive tree] were GRAFTED in among "them".

    I used Luke chapter 3 as a reference for Jesus being part of Israel not Paul's writings.

    If Jacob is Israel then that makes Jesus part of Israel and He cannot be seperated from Israel because He was born into the tribe of Judah.

    Who do you think started the lineage in Luke chapter 3 ? I know the answer.
     
  3. Darrenss1

    Darrenss1 New Member

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    Its a significant point to make that Jesus was not one of those in wilderness that rebelled because of unbelief or at the time of Acts whom rejected the Messiah, clearly Jesus is NOT that Israel whom rejected Him. The fact of the matter is the Israel Paul referred to, was broken off, clearly Jesus was not broken off as they were; But they were broken off because they rejected their Messiah. You have Israel, you have Israel's Messiah, that's 2 different identities you are trying to classify into 1.

    Darren
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Darren,

    You say:

    Huh?

    Yes, the Bible tells us that Jesus is Israel.

    In Matthew 2:15 "And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying Out of Egypt have I called my son."

    Matthew 2:15 quoted and fulfilled Hosea 11:1 says, "When ISRAEL was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

    Clearly Hosea 11:1 speaks of 'Israel' is Jesus.

    grainofwheat is right, that Jesus is Israel. Because He is the seed. If anyone who have faith in Christ, they are are belong to the same seed, which, God gave the promise to Abraham of his seed, which is Christ's.

    In Galatians 3:14 - "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we(Gentiles and Jews Christians) receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

    Galatins 3:14 fulfilled in Genesis 17:4.

    Notice Gal.3:16 says: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promise made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of ONE, and to thy seed, which is CHRIST."

    Throughout Old Testament period for about 2,500 years, many Jews, even included few Gentiles put their faith on God, they were part of Abraham's seed which is THROUGH Christ! -Gal. 3:7, same as we have faith in Christ, both O.T. saints and N.T. saints are on the same boat, which we are on Christ- the same seed.

    Gal. 3:26-29 "For ye are ALL the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor female: for re are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

    Galatians chapter 3 is not talking about about nation. It talks about individuals over the world, anyone either Jew or Gentile, who have faith in Jesus Christ, both are on the same boat that both did share the same promise, which God has told to Abraham, that we all are in ONE SEED.


    Well, also, Romans chapter 11 telling us that we are on the same tree. Romans chapter 11 is not discuss about physical nation. It discusses about individual's salvation.

    Church doesn't replace Israel. Church is Israel. Israel is Church. Both are same. Israel means God's people, well also, church means God's people. Both are no difference.

    I am NOT a "Replacement Theology".

    Israel was never been replaced, Israel is now expanding, because God added Gentiles upon the same tree, which believing Jews are remain on it. Gentiles are now join with believing Jews, both are share on the same tree, which is JESUS CHRIST!

    The tree of Romans chapter 11 is all about Jesus Christ, not physical nation.

    God only have one family.

    Simple, in the heaven, there is only one city, one family, one God. There is no division in heaven.

    Whole Bible is all about Jesus Christ, not tiny physical Jewish nation.

    Understand clear? Thanks.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
    #124 DeafPosttrib, Aug 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2009
  5. HAmilton

    HAmilton New Member

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    I agree--I wish that Christians would stop supporting Israel's abuses in the occupied territories (ie. stoning Palestinians and ripping up their crops among many other things in order to push them off their land). I recently read a study by a Jewish academic that shows that the Palestinians have a more direct genetic link to ancient Jews than do most of the Jews who emmigrated from Europe and whose descendants were European converts to Judaism.
     
  6. Darrenss1

    Darrenss1 New Member

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    Sounds like it to me. As long as you take that position we'll have to agree to disagree. See you after the rapture. :laugh:

    Darren
     
  7. FR7 Baptist

    FR7 Baptist Active Member

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    What many people call "Replacement Theology" is really "Expansionist Theology" in that it makes God's offer of salvation available to all. Now, to be clear the universal availability was there in the OT, but the NT expands it from national Israel to the Church, spiritual Israel.

    One book that does a good job of debunking dispensationalism is The Rapture Exposed by the Rev. Barbara Rossing, a Lutheran theologian.
     
  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    That all depends which church you are speaking of, a building or, the individual believer.
    I believe the believer is the is the body of Christ and the true church.
    Those not prepared have no faith. To be faithful in anything one has to be prepared.
    We all suffer persecution we don't have to be in the trib for that. Christ suffered it and said we would to if we follow Him.
    Obviously you haven't read who the sons of God were. They were actually responsible for the most part of the flood. There offspring were called the Nephilem.
    Exactly no one was let in after the door was closed and it was closed before the flood came. Not in the middle of it.
    What's strange about it most of the world is all ready to accept it right now?
    None of this disproves the pretribulation rapture nor does it prove midtrib. It's a matter of God's promises and He would have to take the Holy Spirit from every Christian on earth because it is Him the restrains and the Anti Christ cannot be revealed until He is taken out of the way. It is the wrath of Satan when he deceives the masses and He does this in the first half of the trib.
    MB
     
    #128 MB, Aug 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2009
  9. grainofwheat

    grainofwheat New Member

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    The cultivated olive tree was planted long before Israel was in the wilderness with Moses.
    It goes back to at least Abraham who was justified by faith.Hebrews chapter 11 takes it back even farther than Abraham.

    He came to His own,and His own did not receive Him. John 1:11
    "His own is Israel."

    Luke chapter 3:23-38 gives a complete circle from Adam to Jesus.
    Jesus started this perfect circle by creating Adam and then leaving Heaven coming through the VIRGIN womb of Mary to COMPLETE THE CIRCLE.
    Abraham Isaac Jacob [Israel] are in this direct lineage.

    Jesus is the root and Israel is the natural branches of the SAME OLIVE TREE. My posting in #116 of this thread stated that God did not plant a new tree but grafted us into the original cultivated Olive Tree.
    You have actually done a good job of proving my point [ better than me ] that Jesus is the root of this Tree. Israel was the original branches of this tree and some of them were cut off to make room for us Gentiles.[ but it is still the same original tree - not a new one , my original premise in #116 ].
     
    #129 grainofwheat, Aug 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2009
  10. Darrenss1

    Darrenss1 New Member

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    The circle is fine, we agree on that, as for Jesus being "Israel" I don't see it that way.

    Darren
     
  11. The Parson

    The Parson Member
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    Call me silly but in the Gospels the Savior spoke of the end times events in a specific order. (Matt 24 & Mark 13) And those who speak of us not being appointed unto wrath haven't really separated the difference between God's wrath which we aren't appoint to and mans (anti-Christs) wrath. Or did I miss a post? Anyway, I'm still studying it but lean more towards a mid trib view than any other.
     
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Since God is using the AC...is this not God's wrath against mankind?
     
  13. The Parson

    The Parson Member
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    Wonderful answer but permissive will doesn't always relate to God's direct Judgment does it? Consider Lot. He was vexed sorely over the evil in Sodom wasn't he? Yet before God's judgment, he was removed. And Job. Was he receiving the wrath of God? That's something to ponder on. We could even equate Noah I believe into the conversation.

    The first section of the Saviors description in Matthew and Mark speaks of major persecution and then the calling out. Next we see God's wrath poured out. God didn't initiate the persecution in the first part of the Saviors description which really equates to tribulation did He?

    Not debating, just pondering.
     
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