Millenial Exclusionists sound off!

If you could stick to one subject, we could debate. Are you telling me how I believe concerning salvation, or are you telling me how I believe concerning reward? I am confused on which way to respond because you keep jumping back an forth.

AVL1984 gracefully differs with me on reward. You differ with me on salvation and reward. Your "salvation by works" is much more Catholic than my "protestant purgatory".

Lacy

 

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AVL1984 gracefully differs with me on reward. You differ with me on salvation and reward. your "salvation by works" is much more Catholic than my "protestant purgatory".

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Your belief in a catholic like purgatory at all, DENIES GRACE THROUGH FAITH, and the POWER of the CROSS in the saved persons life. This is heresy to believe you will be punished after this life. It is appointed for man to live once, and then the judgement. You are either found in the Lambs book of life, or you are not, and if YOU ARE NOT, you will NEVER ENTER HEAVEN, at the RAPTURE,at the Judgement seat of Christ, or any other time but the Great White throne judgement. If one goes to Hell, they will be cast into the LAKE OF FIRE for all eternity. Hell is for the spirit, the Lake of fire is for the resurrected body, with the soul(Hell)for all eternity. You clearly do not have a correct biblical understanding of what HELL exactly is.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

I don't believe in purgatory.

 

Has your spirit been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ? If so, how can you EVER possibly think you could go to the spiritual abode for those ETERNALLY SEPARATED FROM GOD - Hell? This is HERESY.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

The spiritual abode for those ETERNALLY SEPARATED FROM GOD - Hell? . . .not what my Bible says.

You clearly do not have a correct biblical understanding of what HELL exactly is. :D


Perhaps you were referring to this place.

Now that's eternal and separated!

Lacy

 

Duly noted. Have you been to any of the recent AE Wilson, Kingdom/Accountability conferences?

Lacy </font>[/QUOTE]No I haven't. What do they teach on this matter?

 

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KJV Psalms 139:7-8
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
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You clearly do not have a correct biblical understanding of what HELL exactly is.

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Lacy, you are taking this verse of scripture out of context and understanding, and using this for the basis of your faulty belief. Do you understand what HELL was in the Old testament prior to Jesus Christ? Do you realize there were two separate compartments? One in fiery torment, for the eternally separated from God, and one of Paradise, those who had FAITH and were NOT ETERNALLY SEPARATED FROM GOD? You need to rightly divide and understand the word of truth. You are not doing this, and taking this verse out of context to prove your faulty belief, to which is HERESY.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

I assume you are referring to the Hell/Outer Darknesss question.

Arlen Chitwood, RadMacher and Gary Whipple taught at the conference this summer. They believe much the same way as Dillow. (They don't believe a disobedient Christian who misses the Kingdom goes to hell) (The same teaching as the Late Dr. AE Wilson.)

Joey Faust and a couple of others taught too and of course he does teach what I believe.

However, the common ground was that all present taught Millenial Exclusion. The "Mansfield Sect" isn't the only flavor of Grace/Accountability teachers. You should check out Louis Shoettle Publishing. He carries all flavors. (He has also been instrumental in organizing the conferences.

http://inthebeginning.org/schoettle/

I know of at least four churches in the Midland/Odessa area where this teaching (Millenial Exclusion) can be heard. (And at least three in Lubbock.)

“The native magnitude of this [kingdom-accountability] truth must speedily redeem it from all obscurity" Govett

lacy

 

I probably take this verse about the guy who wrote Psalms 139 "out of context" too.

Lacy

 

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I probably take this verse about the guy who wrote Psalms 139 "out of context" too.


quote:
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Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
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Lacy
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Yes, you sure did and are:


Acts 2

21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24. Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26. Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the Promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35. Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


David was not the promised Messiah, and therefore did not ascend into Heaven. This is the POINT Paul is making to the jews, that JESUS CHRIST is the Messiah, as HE DID ascend into heaven and David Knew this and longed for it. David KNEW THIS, but he also had hope for that day, when Jesus Christ would ascend, so that his soul was not LEFT IN HELL. David understood.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

So if he was making a POINT by using an example, then the example is either not true or else not anything we should look at. Just look at the point and ignore that man behind the curtain.

David was speaking of Christ. Of course, I agree. That was the point. But the point was made clear by the fact that Jesus had ascended and David was still dead and buried.

I'm just not positive that Paradise was removed from Hell. Perhaps it was. Paul was caught up into Paradise. But the term "caught up" doesn't necesarily imply direction. I've studied the issue and there are arguments on both sides.

The theory that Paradise is now in Heaven is just a theory. I don't believe that the "captivity" that he led captive is necessarily the saved in Paradise. It could have been, but if it was it was probably just the souls, not the place.

I doubt that too though because David has not yet ascended. Many writers say all the dead still go to the underworld. (Paradise or hell) Paradise could still be in the underworld, and quite frankly so could all of the dead.

You really can't be so dogmatic about the intermediate state. There is not that much information. The deeper you study, the more confusing it gets. It doesn't really clear up scripturally until after the rapture and the ressurrection.

The whole tradition of when you die you go to Heaven, or if you're not saved you go straight to eternal Hell is way over-simple. It stands very strong until someone actually challenges it.

I don't think it helps your argument that David could have been referring to Paradise and not to Hell. First of all it is conjecture on your part. You can't prove it. Secondly, it still proves God's Spirit is everywhere, and to be in the underworld is not spiritual separation anymore than Carlsbad cavern is.

Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Proverbs 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the Lord: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

 

Hi Bartholomew,

Welcome Back!

I do NOT believer the same thing about the “‘standard’ once-saved-always-saved doctrine” as I do about the teachings of the Faust sect. The reason for this difference in belief is that the “standard” OSAS doctrine is based, at least in part, on the sovereignty of God and predestination. Although the OSAS crowd very badly misunderstands what the Bible says about the sovereignty of God and predestination, these doctrines are, when properly understood, Biblical doctrines. OSAS, of course, is not a Biblical doctrine, but it does have a Biblical foundation of a sort. Millennial Exclusion has no Biblical foundation at all.

There are literally thousands of well-educated people who believe in OSAS, even many individuals who have considerable formal education in the Biblical languages and the Greek text of the New Testament. True, with the education that they have they should know better than to believe in OSAS, but most of them learned that doctrine as children in Sunday School and continue to hang on to it much like a child and his security blanket (I’ve heard rumors that it is very common to see the faculty members of Dallas Theological Seminary sucking their thumbs and walking around with their blanket in their hand :rolleyes: ).

The doctrine of Millennial Exclusion, however, is the belief, almost exclusively, of cracked pots who have never had any formal education in the Biblical languages or the Greek text of the New Testament :D . Joey Faust told me in personal correspondence that he has no formal education at all beyond high school :confused: . Indeed, their doctrine is based almost exclusively on gross misunderstandings of a very badly outdated, archaic translation of the Old and New Testaments, and I believe that there is a very high probability that the sect will soon become a full-blown non-Christian cult :eek: .

Yes, Joey Faust is right to apply the warnings of apostasy in the New Testament to Christians. He apparently came to that conclusion by taking God at His word without distorting it to suit his fancy. However, he is still sucking is thumb and walking around with his security blanket (even though his blanket is badly tattered and full of gaping holes). As a consequence, he refuses to take God at His word when it comes to the consequence of failing to heed the warnings. He takes the warnings very literally, as they were intended to be, but he spiritualizes the consequences. That is not just poor hermeneutics—that is something far, far worse! :eek:

 

Lacy,

You saying, you do not believe paradise already removed from hell, and you saying, that people believe paradiae is now in the heaven IS a theory.

I disagree with you.

There have few verses mentioned on paradise.

First, let's read in Luke 16:19-31. Jesus Christ does not saying 'parable'. I believe this is a true story, because of two persons' names, Christ COULD have named of rich man's name, if he wants to.

Lazarcus was a beggar, he dying right at near rich man's place. Lazarcus begs for food. Rich man refuses give some food to him. And Lazarcus died. Also, a rich man died. Luke 16:22 tells us, immediately right after Lazarcus died, he was carried to Abraham's BOSOM. Rich man died, immediately he woke up in his eyes, and being torments in the afar off Abraham's bosom.

Luke 16:26 tells us, there is between Abraham's bosom and hell - a great gulf fixed apart of them.

I believe both are literal places. Also, I believe Abraham's bosom was a literal place during Old Testament period. That place, where many Old Testament saints died and went down there with Abraham during Old Testament period.

During Christ's crucify. There were two men hanged on the cross with Christ. A man on the cross, told to Christ, remember him when Christ comes into His kingdom. Then, Christ said to him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

I believe Both Jesus, and man on the cross were died on the same day, their soul went to Abraham's bosom 'paradise'.

Eph. 4:8-10 - I believe it tells us, Christ must first go down, to take all his people out of that place. And bring them all into the heaven with him at the resurrection.

2 Cor. 12:1-4 - I believe Apostle Paul was actually killed by stoned (Acts 14:19). Probably, Paul's soul already went into the heaven. That why Paul said, 'paradise'.

Also, find in Rev. 2:7 tells us, anyone who shall overcome, shall eat the tree of life in the midst of the paradise of God. Obivously, paradise is in the heaven.

Right now, there is no more Abraham's bosom down there.

Because Jesus Christ already resurrection, and overcome death, that why Christ took all his saints out of it, and bring them into heaven with him at Christ's resurrection.

I understand King David, speak of to set his bed in the hell. Means, gravel or buried in the ground. KIng David does not saying being suffering in torment. David's point speak of about how wonderful God is, and he knows, there will be resurrection, and it does fulfilled on that day - Christ risen.

That verse as you(Lacy) showed us, does not prove us, that Christians shall suffer in hell for a temporary like as purgatory, that Christians shall be punish during millennial kingdom.

Also, Joey Faust's teaching is a obivously theory to me about cast Christians into the hell for a temporary during millennial kingdom, his teaching does not prove find anywhere in the Bible.

I agree with Craig, he saying, Faust's teaching is a heresy.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

What kind of an insane, screwball [generalization] is this? :D


Craig this is not true and you know it. You have a list of who taught it. I don't think anyone, who was trying to at least be honest and objective, could put SS Craig, Rogert Govett, GH Lang, Seiss, Neighbour, Pember, Roadhouse, AE Wilson, Albert Tilney, WH Griffith Thomas, Phillip Mauro, Fry, and Hudson Taylor in the "Linguistically Challenged Crack-Pot" section. (I'm not sure you could find very many KJVOs among them either.) Have you read the 1st few chapters of "The Dualism of Eternal Life" by SS Craig? You have got to be kidding me.

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline/craig/eternallife.htm

Lacy

I wonder what it means when your debate opponents in a debate start throwing bombs of imprudent subjectivism. Did you run out of cannon balls again Craig?

 

Here is a link to a great article, that my dad referred me to, after speaking with him about this issue. I just read this today, and I recommend you all to read it. May our Lord richly bless you with understanding as you read it.


http://www.lesfeldick.org/lesqa-a.html#14a


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Lacy,

You have to decide which is more weigh of evidences toward Bible or bible scholars about the judgment day and hell. I don't care how many bible scholars which support millennial exclusion doctrine. We have to be careful what we listening to any man's teaching, maybe they are wrong. We are responsible to study Bible - 2 Tim. 2:15 more carefully and examine the verses seriously.

Many times, in the Bible warns us about false teachers like as in Matt. 7:15; 15:14; etc. there are many false teachers rise out everywhere in the world, even, in America too. Many are already deceived by false teachers.

We have to be careful, what we listening what the men saying or preaching, we have to sticky with Bible, because the Bible is the final answer and truths.

So far, I find no evidence verse find anywhere in the Bible supports millennial exclusion. Like as you quoted Matt. 7:21-23; Matt. 25:26-30; Gal. 5:19-21; etc. to "prove" teaching of millennial exclusion. Actually, none of these saying about 'millennial exclusion'. All of these passages are warning to the disobedients, unbelievers, wicked, lazy servants, these shall be cast away into everlasting punishment at the judgment day. Nothing find any in these passages give us, there is a hint, that a person shall be finally being released out of the hell in the beyond after the judgement day.

I am telling you, I have seen there are so many 'guessworks' in men's(include Faust) teachings on millennial exclusion by their own intepreting verses, but not all verses actually saying the exactly clear to prove these are millennial exclusion.

I do not accept men's own guesswork to intepreting on verses in their own view and theory. Because there is none find in all passages saying about 'millennial exclusion'.

Even, during in my early Christian life, I understand Matt. 7:21-23; and Gal. 5:19-21 are speak of judging upon unbelievers, and send them into everlasting punishment. Honest, I do not see "purgatory" mentioned in Matt. 7:21-23; Matt. 25:26-30; etc. Because there are no promised in any passages saying that a person shall be finally being released out of the hell beyond the judgement day.

Also, I believe there is the only ONE judgement day at Christ's coming, not two or three judgment days according dispensationalism doctrine.

There is no hint find anywhere in the Bible teaching there shall be two or three different judgment days beyond the Rapture. Bible teaches us, there is the only one judgement day follow Christ's coming, no other else.

No way that you can prove a verse in the Bible saying that a person shall be finally released out of hell or lake of fire beyond the judgement day. Once for a person cast into punishment is an eternality, that's it, there is no other chance for a person shall be finally being released out of the hell/lake of fire beyond the judgement day. Because, none of any passage saying, a lazy servant or Christian shall suffer in the hell for a 'a thousand years' or, 'during millennial kingdom'.

Christ tells us, a person shall be cast into everlasting fire right away after the judgement day - Matt. 7:21-23; Matt. 13:41-42; Matt. 25:26-30; Matt. 25:41; Luke 13:24-30, etc. None of these passage saying, a person shall be finally being released out of the everlasting fire beyond the judgment day.

I strongly disagree with Faust, and many teachers teaching on millennial exclusion. Because they depend on security salvation. I used to believed in security salvation. But, now, I am no longer hold on it. I believe the Bible is very clear teaching us of conditional salvation, with many words- 'if's .

Many people easy dislike the teaching of conditional salvation, make them feel uncomfort. They love to listen security salvation, the reason is to make them feel good and playing around with God, they think they are always saved no matter how often they sinned, they still can go to heaven, shall suffer loss reward, or suffering in the purgatory, yet WILL have eternal life with Christ on new earth and in New Jerusalem, no matter what how bad they are doing. That is take advance or steal God's grace, while sinning - Romans 6:1, God forbids.

We ought to urge people to live godly, separate from the world, because God is just and holy, we ought to follow Christ.

By the way, I am 100% agree with Craig talked about Hebrews chapter 3,4, and I think he talked of chapter 13 too. Always interpreting in contextually, that is Hermenutic rules. We should read and interpreting scriptures or passage in contextually, so, we can understand what the whole passage is talking about.

There are so much passages teaching us of conditional salvation, they are so overwhelming, no way that we can afford to neglect them.

I consider, millennial exclusion teaching is a heresy, because there is no evidence find anywhere in the Bible teaching on that. That are men's opinions. I do not follow men's opinions. I rather follow the Bible than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Dear brother Lacy,

Not only is context important in Bible study, it is also important in reading posts on this message board. In the post that you are being so zealously critical of I was not debating anyone but responding to specific questions (see below) that I was asked by Bartholomew, a civilized Christian man with whom I have had some very pleasant dialog in times past.

Because of the apparent goodness of this man’s heart and his kindness toward me, I felt a desire in my heart to answer his questions as accurately as possible. Therefore, rather than immediately pounding the keyboard, I set aside two days to reflect and meditate upon his questions and the answers to his questions before I typed a single word. And then after the two days had elapsed, I answered his questions as honestly and forthrightly as I could. I am sorry that my answer offended you. That was not my intention.

These are the questions that I was answering:

Lacy, the doctrine of Millennial Exclusion is such a grossly absurd and baseless doctrine that I do not know of a more intelligent way to refute it. The proponents of the doctrine claim that verses in the Bible that have absolutely nothing to do with a future millennium prove that Christians will spend 1000 years in hell. When they are asked to provide evidence that these scriptures are speaking of a future millennium, the question is never answered exegetically. How can I more intelligently refute answers to questions when there is no answer to refute?

There are a few people posting on this message board who are extreme preterists, teaching that the Second Coming of Christ occurred in 70 A.D. When I challenge that doctrine, they respond exactly as you have by offering the names of a few Bible “scholars” who were preterists, and quote from them. The most able of the scholars that they quote from is the late Dr. John Broadus. However, when I read their quotes in context, I found that Dr. John Broadus wrote that it is “absurd and impossible” to interpret the Sermon on the Mount to teach that the Second Coming of Christ written of in the epistles has already taken place. So what did I do then? I posted Dr. John Broadus’ comments in context. And what did my opponent do? He posted that my post proved that Dr. John Broadus was a preterist.

According to their view, the Second Coming of Christ took place in 70 A.D. and anyone who can not see that in the Bible is spiritually blind and a major cause of today’s disrespect for the Gospel message. Debating these people is nothing but foolishness because they believe that we are blind to the truth and that they have an insight into the Scriptures that we are not spiritually mature enough to have. ANYONE AT ALL with even the smallest amount of discernment can readily see that these people are looney tunes, but they believe that we are have been deceived by false teachers.

My approach on this message board is to display where appropriate my competence in Biblical exegesis and then use my reputation to blast fools for whom careful and precise exegesis means absolutely nothing at all unless it furthers their cause. If Nobel Prize winning physicists and astronomers can not persuade the sincere members of the flat earth society that the earth is spherical rather than flat, it is not reasonable for me to believe that I can persuade either the extreme preterists or the Millennial Exclusionists that that they incorrect, so I simply post for the sake of others reading the posts on this message board that extreme preterists and the Millennial Exclusionists are academically and spiritually incapacitated to a substantial degree and should not be taken seriously.

I am not out to win a popularity contest, and I know that I am at the bottom of the list as far as many persons are concerned, but that has been the case for me for many years. But every once in a while somebody comes up to me to tell me that although they thought I was a bit off when they first heard me, they learned after years of study of the Scriptures that I was right, and that they were wrong, and that the things that I taught them greatly enriched their lives.

Lacy, You have a beautiful and loving spirit that lends much credence to the veracity of the Gospel message, but you are seriously in error on some doctrinal matters. As a friend and brother I implore you to beseech God to teach you His truths and to protect you from error, and I implore you to do this not just today, but everyday for the rest of your life. If you will do that, you will find that God will open the Scriptures for you like you never thought was possible. But I also implore you to beseech God daily to cause your beautiful and loving spirit to increase even more in beautify and love that our Lord Jesus might be all the more glorified.

 

Amen!

Col. 2:8. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. (NASB, 1995)

 

Amen, Brother Craig by the Sea, on both your last
two posts! Preach it!

 

Craig, I was not offended. I respect your opinions and even agree with them much of the time. However, I was not offering names of scholars to defend the doctrine. I was offering names of scholars to answer your "criticism".

You can't have it both ways. When you argue that no "real scholar" taught it, I show you many that did. Then you turn around and say, "See you debate just like a preterist, just quoting a bunch of scholars."

Pick a side.

You probably could find a "real scholar" that did as much research as Joey Faust on his first book. But I'll bet not many, especially in the last 50 years. I have a degree and I don't ever remember having worked that hard (traversing the USA, spending literally hours and hours in out of the way libraries)to complete anything for my degree. Scholarship comes in different forms. Sometimes it's Paul, sometimes it's Peter.

I've been waiting for you to "Ripplingerize" him with all the "out of context quotes" and "bad references" he must have, since he only has a high school diploma. You have had the book for months.


Lacy