Post edited for content. Please keep your posts on the topic rather than making comments about other posters.
Thanks,
Larry
[ January 26, 2005, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
Misconceptions
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Drew, Jan 20, 2005.
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Hi Hard sheller;
You said you believed in these things;
You said;
"Even unsaved men can obey the laws of God."
It's nice that you can admit what is true and ofcourse you agree the law is a good thing to obey. However the words Total Depravity together simply means that the natural man is completely evil with no good with in.
You said;
"Where are you getting all your misconceptions?
"
If all I have is misconceptipons of Calvinism then it could have only come from what I have read right here at BB.com from the Calvinist them selves. Most Calvinist misrepresent there own doctrines because they only know what there teachers have taught them and not what Calvin himself wrote in the institutes of Christianity.
The answers given to the Arminians were not asked by Calvin Him self but it seems that after His death Calvinism changed somewhat with each new successor. It must have evolved with minister like Spurgeon.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike -
You said;
"Even unsaved men can obey the laws of God."
It's nice that you can admit what is true and ofcourse you agree the law is a good thing to obey. However the words Total Depravity together simply means that the natural man is completely evil with no good with in.
You said;
"Where are you getting all your misconceptions?
"
If all I have is misconceptipons of Calvinism then it could have only come from what I have read right here at BB.com from the Calvinist them selves. Most Calvinist misrepresent there own doctrines because they only know what there teachers have taught them and not what Calvin himself wrote in the institutes of Christianity.
The answers given to the Arminians were not asked by Calvin Him self but it seems that after His death Calvinism changed somewhat with each new successor. It must have evolved with minister like Spurgeon.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]You continue to try to put words in people's mouths without listening to what they say. -
Hi Hardsheller;
This thread isn't about me Hardsheller it's about misconceptions. Point them out if you have them and we'll discuss them. You seem to want to discuss me. I'm real glad that you like me and all but we are suppose to stay on the topic at hand. The topic get it!
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike -
For example - You said - "The doctrine of Total depravity states that the natural man is focused on evil continually and thus is unable to respond to the gospel."
Then you said - "..the words Total Depravity together simply means that the natural man is completely evil with no good with in."
Neither one of those statements is a true representation of Calvinistic Doctrine. -
The doctrine of Total Depravity does not state that the natural man is focused on evil continually and thus is unable to respond to the gospel.
Where did you get this?
The doctrine of total depravity means that left up to his natural inclinations he will never overcome his propensity toward evil.
The words Total Depravity together simply means that the natural man is completely evil with no good within.
Where did you get this?
Calvinists when they use the words Total Depravity do not mean that all men are as depraved as they can possibly be. There are always varying degrees of depravity. For example Saddam Hussein and Adolph Hitler were more depraved than you and I were before we were saved. -
Hi Hardsheller;
Depravity;
Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savor; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Can you show me just where it says man cannot hear or respond,or even understand or act upon a spiritual decision to the gospel?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike -
Mike,
A man cannot overcome his inclination to evil or to sin. That is why we all need a savior. -
Can you show me just where it says man cannot hear or respond,or even understand or act upon a spiritual decision to the gospel?
Come on ILL... read Romans 3
Romans 3:10-11 10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 NO ONE UNDERSTANDS; no one seeks for God.
There' a point blank proof text.. You wanted a verse that says the natural man can't UNDERSTAND and there you go. Quit worshipping man !
1 Corinthians 2:14 14 The natural person DOES NOT ACCEPT the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is NOT ABLE TO UNDERSTAND them because they are spiritually discerned.
You might as well preach the gospel in English to a bunch of Chinamen... they can hear you, but they can't understand you. SO THEY ALSO CAN NOT RESPOND.. Spiritualy, you can preach it but unless God opens up the eyes of the natural man he will NEVER repsond.
See? That's what it is like to DIRECTLY use scripture in a response. I didn't lead you on a rabbit trail about something completely differant and the verses were BY THE WORD EXACTLY what you were looking for. Can you please do the same? Stop trying to make God a lier ! -
Hi Hardsheller;
The only difference between saved and unsaved is Christ Jesus it is His righteousness that we have. Our's is like filthy raggs. Even still this doesn't mean that man has no righteousness or no value because even raggs can be washed.
I couldn't help noticing that you had no reply to my understanding of your views of Total Depravity.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all'
Mike -
Rest Easy Mike,
I just don't have time to address it today. I'll get to it. -
Hi Harsheller;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike -
There you go again ILL ... change the subject...
Find a verse that EXPLICITLY, word for word says NATURAL MAN HAS THE ABIBILITY to seek God !!! -
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You say you understand Calvinism, Mike, yet...
This is a straw man, because Calvinism teaches man can and does resist God's grace. Irresistible grace means that God's grace in saving an individual is effective and overcomes the resistance that man offers. It does not mean grace is not resisted at all. (You also fail to account for John 6:44-45, which flatly contradicts you.)
Oh, and Rome believes in general atonement.
By the way, Rome accepts your position on conditional security too.
The fact that you have, in the past, tried to allege that Calvinism is Romanist, it is abundantly clear that you have taken the side of the papists in your soteriology. This shows exactly how profoundly confused you must be.
How is it that you can say they can do something that Scripture says plainly they do not do and, when the questions being answered are "why" questions (Romans 8:7 even uses the word "because" to answer that very question) about their not seeking God, the answer is clearly that they do not have the moral ability to do so, which, for the record, is the exact position of Reformed soteriology? -
That's fine Gene, but not one of those scriptures say that man CAN NOT Seek God!
CAN NOT is different than DO NOT, WILL NOT! We have our excuses why we do not and will not, but there is nothing in scripture that says we CAN NOT Seek God. There is no physical reason, nor spiritual reason why man can not seek God!
As for Romans 8:7 which you use out of context:
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Now let us look at the context, because, CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!
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Regarding Rom. 8
Wes, posting Scripture and not interacting with it yourself to show how I have misinterpreted it shows only that you can post Scripture and say somebody has misinterpreted it. Please interact with long texts of Scripture that you post.
First of all, the law to which Paul refers is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. It is this law that has freed us from the law of sin and death as seen in 8:2. This is a very common error with many Christians who want to eradicate the law (while not knowing which law) from the believer's life. Paul is not referring to law-keeping but to the law of life which only believers have. The law of God (any law) doesn't save us and even the unbeliever can grasp the essence of God's law which is written on the conscience of all men. However, unbelievers pervert this law because of the blindness Satan has been allowed by God to place over their ability to see, know and understand the light (truth) of the glorious gospel (2 Cor. 4:4). Jeremiah 31:31 clearly tells us that our covenant membership/life in Christ is having the law of God written on our hearts. Obviously, this implies that prior to our conversion there is no law of God (law of the Spirit of life) written on our hearts. Why? Because the only (spiritual) heart we have prior to conversion is compared to stone which is without life and that which is without life has no ability to believe anything apart from its own natural realm of understanding. Paul reminds us that the natural man (carnal mind) is at enmity with God. This means the natural man has a natural malice or hatred for anything pertaining to God. The natural man is still outside the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. He is still dead in sin and subject to the law of sin and death. He is not subject to the law of life, obviously, since he has NO life in Christ. It is only in this sense the Arminian is 'somewhat' correct, even though he clearly doesn't understand what law God is talking about.
Secondly, Romans 8 doesn't directly speak of the unbeliever's ability to believe. Nowhere does Paul address the issue of believing in this chapter. However, Romans 10 clearly speaks of the issue of believing but never apart from an action of the heart. So, if the unbeliever can believe with a stone heart, why then is there any need to change it to a heart of flesh? Of course, the word 'heart' is used metaphorically and it describes the action of that which has life.
The following is God's own description of the unbeliever:
outside the law of the Spirit of life
under the law of sin and death
blinded by Satan so that he cannot see (know/understand) the light (truth) of the glorious gospel
has an innate hatred/malice (enmity) toward God
has a heart of stone (lifeless)
their heart is wicked
unable to understand spiritual things
unable to please God
The mind of the lost person is hostile toward God! The lost need more than a little help to believe or a little persuasion. The core of his being, his mind is set against God.
The lost person does not subject itself to the law of God. Make whatever arguments you want about whether the Gospel is in view with the term law; this means that the lost man is in a permanent state of rebellion against the authority of God.
The lost person is not even able to subject himself to the law of God. Again, even if the gospel is not in view here, the rebellion in lost man against the authority of God is so deeply entrenched that he can do nothing to change it. The lost man is so affected by sin that he can do nothing to set himself right with God, and in fact doesn't even want to.
Is God pleased when men believe the gospel? (Luke 15:7). I would hope you would say "Yes." However verse 8 says unbelievers are unable to please God; therefore they are unable to believe the gospel, because believing the gospel pleases God." QED. Paul clearly and unequivocally says fallen man is unable to please God apart from regeneration. -
The one verse within what I post, that you hang your doctrine upon, simply does not mean the same thing in Context. And that is why I post the Context!
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