And you seem to be avoiding the OP on this one. I'll quote from it for you:
"A thread in the fellowship forum was opened up but since it was in the fellowship forum someone suggested another being opened for debate in the debate forums. In fulfilling that wish I am opening the debate/discussion on the topic.
"What is a Missonary? What is an Evangelist?
"As well I have included the original question:"
"Originally Posted by Hawaiiski
Where did the term "missionary" originate? Why do we use it if it isn't in the Bible? Was an evangelist in the Bible the equivalent of a missionary?"
My belief is that the Biblical evangelist was not a missionary. You seem to be saying evangelist and missionary are the same. Yet I contend you have not proven your point. Where is it in the Bible that the evangelist was a missionary?
Now, in the texts you have given here, nothing is mentioned about church planting, and the term evangelist is not used. So I fail to see the relevance to our discussion.
Once again I'll ask: where did Timothy do church planting? Do you have a clear understanding of what a church planting missionary does, and of how to plant a church? You don't seem to.
I keep expecting someone to dispute my definition of a missionary as a church planter. No one has, so my definition stands. So now I am still waiting to be shown where the Biblical evangelist planted a church. Go ahead, I'll even allow you to use Timothy. Don't tell me what Timothy did in the church Paul planted. Tell me where Timothy planted a church. I'll be waiting.
Missionary vs Evangelist (Part 2)
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alex Quackenbush, Nov 9, 2007.
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The people you are referencing as the typicals, really have very little to do with Christ. That being said, I understand what you are saying, and there is some truth to it, however some people are in a position where they want to 'go', but the Lord clearly says stay where I put you. I realize there isn't quite so much 'glory' (for lack of a better word) in being a domestic missionary, but nonetheless, there are domestic missionaries.
BGTF
BTW, the answer to your question is yes. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Having said that, in the army the risk of being on the front lines does not compare with the risk of pushing paper in the Pentagon. So frankly I am somewhat jealous of the title missionary. You folk in the States may be Christian soldiers, but do you have to struggle to learn a foreign language? Do you weep over cross-cultural frustration? Do you get stress diseases because you don't understand the customs around you? Do you face real depression from having no idea what to do to build bridges to the people around you who speak a different language and have completely different customs? Do you face complete rejection by heathen bureaucrats simply because you are a missionary when you apply for something? We have faced all of these things foreign to someone who never leaves America, and much more.
I mean no offense, I'm just trying to point out some things about the word missionary. We find when in the States that no one understands these things unless they have actually at least visited the mission fields of the world. Yet that doesn't discourage me. I count it a great, undeserved privilege to be a missionary.
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1Tim 4
10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
11Prescribe and teach these things.
12Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.
13Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
14Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
1. The activity described is not that of someone going to a new area and evangelizing -
2. You seem to be arguing that you find no evangelism there AND that you find no church planting - church growth etc there.
Is it your claim that they did nothing if they were not evangelists? -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Does this now make sense to you? I'd really like to continue the debate if we can pay attention to each other's views and seek to understand them. If we can't, then this is not a debate, it's a futile exchange of mis-understood posts.
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We could talk off-line about this if you like.
I am reading a book right now titled "Workmen of God" by Oswald Chambers, it may be of some help to you.
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
If you want to discuss it off line and ask more about my position, please feel free to PM me.
Of course the authority for baptism would take an entire 'nother thread, so all I will say is to note what I did before, that Matthew's commission was given specifically to the 11, who were the leadership of the first church at Jerusalem. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The evangelist: is a specialist in mass and personal evangelism (see the life of Philip), who ministers to the churches (Eph. 4:11). Therefore he is likely to hold evangelistic meetings in churches, tents and auditoriums. He may hold seminars on personal evangelism and write books on it. He seeks revival of the church and believers so that more souls will be saved for God's glory, therefore his preaching may be sharper and harder at times than the pastor--he can say some things the pastor dare not.
The church-planting missionary in the mold of Paul: does pioneer evangelism, usually cross-culturally (though I believe there is a place for home missions). He starts a church from scratch, with the goal of bringing it to independence with a national pastor (the three selfs: self-supporting, self-propagating, self-governing). Therefore he must also mentor and train young men for the pastorate. He himself must also be a pastor as long as he is planting the church. All of this points to a very different skill set than that of the evangelist mentioned above. -
This is said with a large wail, .....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
The three self patriotic movement was initialized by the Chinese government in the 50's with the aim of removing foreign influence in China, and instituting governmental control over the church.
This isn't the most complete info, but it is introductory on the topic.
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/three-self.htm
"Come wind, Come weather" by Leslie T. Lyall about the present experience of the church in China has a great summation of the "three self movement".
If you can't access the book there, I will type it into a PM for you.
BGTF -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Self_Patriotic_Movement (The facts about Venn are also in the link you gave me.) -
BGTF -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Our goal is to work ourselves out of a job, and turn the church over to a national pastor. "National pastor" is more polite nowadays than the old term "native pastor." It's as simple as that. :type:
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