I thought the "bone of contention" was whether the Prodigal was a son when he left home or not! Just goes to show!
Incidentally Skan. I am always honest, perhaps not objective, but honest!
Monergism vs. Synergism
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Herald, Dec 16, 2012.
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For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom. 9:15,18
Above you said, "based on Christ's merit."
Faith, is the merit of Christ by which one is imputed with the righteousness of God which the works of the law could never give.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe (Or, are of faith.: for there is no difference:
How does one be, of faith? Through the faith of Jesus the Christ, Christ's merit and the grace of his Father God, by raising him from the dead, one can be given the Holy Spirit putting him in Christ therefore being, of faith, that is one believing.
Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Your faith therefore would be Christ in you, so done by the Holy Spirit, the hope of glory. That hope being the grace of life (eternal life) applied to incorruptible body at the resurrection/change at the appearing of Jesus. The same grace of life given Christ at his resurrection. For if it had not been given him, faith, that is his death would have been in vain.
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. Therefore you are justified by grace being justified by faith (the shed blood, death) of Jesus the Christ.
That is the faith to come, the Father before placed Anointed Jesus, in his blood a propitiation (place of mercy)
12strings that should be your understanding of faith in Rom 3:25 in the thread, Would this be;. -
IF a sinner accepts jesus/rejects Him, would they be the ultimate basis of their salvation?
IF all sinners have equal shot to get saved, as God graces all of us, why wouldn't the one making right choice for jesus be getting reward for what he did right?
IF jesus died for sins of all, God graces all to be able to get saved, does the will of man trump will of god that all would be reconciled and saved then? -
It seems to me that a lot of theological baggage has been attached to the word faith. It appears to have become a 'substance' that is bottled and doled out to unsuspecting recipients. But the word simply means TRUST. I like that word because it tends not to have all the systematic jargon attached to it. It is just TRUST.
It's resting in someone else's provision. We can place our trust in men, things, organizations, money, false religions, etc etc. And Jesus openly rebukes men for not placing their trust in God, which strongly implies they can and should do so. Otherwise, it makes more since for Jesus to rebuke God for not giving out more of this 'substance' to those who lack it.
Trust is gift that comes from HEARING and experiencing God and His truth. "Faith comes by hearing..." So, in that since it is a gift of God, but we are still responsible (response-able) to exercise it. We can trade the truth of God in for lies or we can REST in it...TRUST in it. TRUSTING is not a work, just the opposite, it is a REST. It's the Prodigal Son giving up trying and trusting his Father to take care of him in his humility. It doesn't merit or earn anything. It is without value. IOW, the trusting/faithful sinner still deserves hell. It's only the Grace of God and merit of Christ work that saves.
All of this to say, that your explanation of my view isn't really wrong (as I understood it), but I've tried to take it out the 'theological' baggage.
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Calvinists, as with most Western thinkers, have a difficult time seeing the corporate perspective in scripture which leads to many errors theologically. -
Percho and others, I hope my response to WITBOTL also addresses some of your questions and points. If not, please let me know as I am trying to same time. Thanks
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It is a horrible idea that there is somebody... who can create us sick (as apparently we are) and then order us on pain of eternal torture to be well again.
-Christopher Hitchens -
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humblethinker said: ↑It is a horrible idea that there is somebody... who can create us sick (as apparently we are) and then order us on pain of eternal torture to be well again.
-Christopher HitchensClick to expand...
Scripture tells us:
Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
From the above remarks we can draw the conclusion that Hitchens was a fool. So your justification for using his view in this Christian discussion is what? -
Skandelon said: ↑EXACTLY, which is the same in our view as yours. Now you are getting it.Click to expand...
Skandelon said:So faith becomes meritorious in the synergist system? Is that what you are claiming because that is what you are saying when you use those words. Work = MeritoriousClick to expand...
Skandelon said:Finish the sentence Herald. I said you may affirm election is unconditional but salvation is still condition upon the man exercising faith in Christ...and I think you know it.Click to expand...
Skandelon said:But even you admitted it must be exercised by the man and by that act alone you have violated your own erroneous definition of works based salvation. Own it or admit that works includes the concept of merit, so that you too can deny a works based salvation.Click to expand...
Skandleon said:Do you think I don't understanding the difference between monergism and synergism simply because I reject your definition of works? I was a monergists for a good part of my life...I get it. You don't have to keep explaining the order of salvation over and over. We are now talking about WORKS. Okay?Click to expand...
#2. Your claim to have been a Monergist falls on deaf ears because you constantly reaffirm your ignorance of it.
Skandleon said:works = meritorious
You can affirm or deny this truth. You definition ignores it and since you won't correct your definition I can only assume that you have chosen to deny the truth of this statement. That is unfortunate and contradicts the teaching of even those of your own system.Click to expand... -
Herald said: ↑Faith is something man must exercise. God gifts man with faith and man is charged with using it (believing). That is consistent with what I have been saying.Click to expand...
Okay, Brother, say I give you two 30 lb dumbbells. Now, you can look at those three times a week, an hour each day, and still be as weak as you were prior to me giving them to you. You have to work out with them before them become beneficial to you. God grants faith as a gift is absolutely correct, but man must exercise it before it becomes beneficial to him. Just because God gives man something doesn't mean he will put it to good use. IOW, God doesn't irresistibly give us anything. He offers and we either accept it or reject it. One can't exchange the truth for a lie w/o first possesing said truth.
No. Man does not cooperate with God in salvation. Once regeneration occurs the sinner is now converted. He is a new creature in Christ. His faith is using that which God has given Him. It is all part of the ordo salutis.Click to expand...
I know you believe this and I have spent more than few threads telling you that you're wrong.Click to expand...
Nope....you're wrong....na na na na na boo boo!! :laugh: :D -
Skan,
I'll pose a question to you, if you care to answer.
Tell me how man is not totally depraved, and totally unable to believe prior to regeneration in light of these passages: Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14, Eph. 2:1; and Col. 1:13. How would you reconcile the Greek work "nekros" in describing the sinners spiritual condition? -
Herald said: ↑Skan,
I'll pose a question to you, if you care to answer.
Tell me how man is not totally depraved, and totally unable to believe prior to regeneration in light of these passages: Rom. 8:7;Click to expand...
Calvinists often turn to Rom 8:7: "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."
I agree that we are born in a sinful state that is hostile to God's law and that as long as we remain under the control of that sin nature we cannot please God...in that we cannot ever complete the demands of the law (as this verse states). But does that say anything about the ability of a lost man to hear, believe and repent when confronted with the powerful Spirit wrought gospel? No. It only speaks of man's nature if left to himself. It says nothing of the ability of one to be reconciled by a divine message sent for the purpose of reconcilation. -
Let's look at the 1 Cor 2:14 text brother:
But as it is written: What no eye has seen and no ear has heard, and what has never come into a man's heart, is what God has prepared for those who love Him. Now God has revealed them to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the concerns of a man except the spirit of the man that is in him? In the same way, no one knows the concerns of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, in order to know what has been freely given to us by God. We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually. The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone. 16 For: who has known the Lord's mind, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. Brothers, I was not able to speak to you as spiritual people but as people of the flesh, as babies in Christ. I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were not yet able to receive it. In fact, you are still not able, because you are still fleshly. For since there is envy and strife among you, are you not fleshly and living like ordinary people?
Read through this text again and notice the distinction Paul makes between the natural/flesh people and the spiritual people.
Here is what we can conclude:
1. The Natural man cannot receive these things Paul is addressing
2. The Spiritual man can receive these things Paul is addressing
3. The BRETHREN (believers) are not being "spiritual" and cannot receive these things Paul is addressing
Thus, the "things" Paul is addressing here cannot be in reference to the simple gospel truth (milk) because the "brethren" (believers) cannot receive them.
(more later, got to run) -
Skandelon said: ↑One at a time:
Calvinists often turn to Rom 8:7: "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."
I agree that we are born in a sinful state that is hostile to God's law and that as long as we remain under the control of that sin nature we cannot please God...in that we cannot ever complete the demands of the law (as this verse states). But does that say anything about the ability of a lost man to hear, believe and repent when confronted with the powerful Spirit wrought gospel? No. It only speaks of man's nature if left to himself. It says nothing of the ability of one to be reconciled by a divine message sent for the purpose of reconcilation.Click to expand... -
Skandelon said: ↑One at a time:
Calvinists often turn to Rom 8:7: "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."
I agree that we are born in a sinful state that is hostile to God's law and that as long as we remain under the control of that sin nature we cannot please God...in that we cannot ever complete the demands of the law (as this verse states). But does that say anything about the ability of a lost man to hear, believe and repent when confronted with the powerful Spirit wrought gospel? No. It only speaks of man's nature if left to himself. It says nothing of the ability of one to be reconciled by a divine message sent for the purpose of reconcilation.Click to expand...
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:9 tells us that a person who does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit is still in the flesh.
If Calvinism's interpretation of this passage is correct, then a man in the flesh without the indwelling Holy Spirit cannot possibly believe. But is that what the scriptures show? NO, the scriptures show the EXACT OPPOSITE, that a man must believe to receive the Spirit.
Scriptures that show a person must first believe to receive the Spirit;
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Holy Spirit by first believing the gospel.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Paul's question shows he believed that a person received the Holy Spirit as a result of first believing on Jesus.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Paul plainly says here that these Ephesians received the Holy Spirit AFTER first believing the gospel.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter plainly told these Jews to repent and believe on Jesus (for only believers are allowed to be baptized), and AFTERWARD they would receive the Holy Spirit.
All of these scriptures and many more prove that men without the indwelling Holy Spirit have the ability to believe the gospel, and once they do they afterward receive the indwelling Spirit.
Calvinism's interpretation of Romans 8:7 is ERROR. -
Skandelon said: ↑One at a time:
Calvinists often turn to Rom 8:7: "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."
I agree that we are born in a sinful state that is hostile to God's law and that as long as we remain under the control of that sin nature we cannot please God...in that we cannot ever complete the demands of the law (as this verse states). But does that say anything about the ability of a lost man to hear, believe and repent when confronted with the powerful Spirit wrought gospel? No. It only speaks of man's nature if left to himself. It says nothing of the ability of one to be reconciled by a divine message sent for the purpose of reconcilation.Click to expand...
Romans 8:5-7 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.Click to expand...
It says nothing of the ability of one to be reconciled by a divine message sent for the purpose of reconcilation.Click to expand...
Ephesians 2:4-5 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead [f]in our transgressions, made us alive together [g]with Christ (by grace you have been saved),Click to expand...
The ability of the dead sinner to respond to a divine message is not even mentioned. To attach it to this passage is an eisegetical error. -
Herald said: ↑The carnal man is at odds with God (enmity). He is literally God's enemy. Why? Because it is not subject (obedient) to the law of God.Click to expand...
1. Paul calls the brethren in Corinth 'carnal.' (1 Cor 3)
2. Proving someone is an enemy doesn't prove they can't respond willingly to God's appeal for reconciliation, that's the presumption you are reading into this text because it never actually states it.
3. Not being able to submit to God's law isn't equal with being unable to respond to God's gracious appeal to be reconciled. (see more below)
The phrase, "neither can it be" denotes complete inability.Click to expand...
Your implied assumption is that a sinner who is spiritually dead can somehow respond to a "divine message" (the Gospel) without the prerequisite of being made able to respond.Click to expand...
God holds men responsible (response-able) for his response to the gospel appeal, which strongly implies men are able to respond to it.
Even when we were dead in our transgressions, He made us alive. This is regeneration. We don't even see faith in the text until verse 8.
The ability of the dead sinner to respond to a divine message is not even mentioned. To attach it to this passage is an eisegetical error.Click to expand...
John 20:29: Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Notice the order:
John says, "BY believing you may have life"
Calvin says, "by life you may believe" -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThree major problems with your interpretation:
1. Paul calls the brethren in Corinth 'carnal.' (1 Cor 3)Click to expand...
they were behaving as mere natural men...out of character.. -
Herald said: ↑I've gotten it all along. You haven't taught me anything new.Click to expand...
but his steadfast refusal to see his sinful nature as the Bible reveals it to be turns it into one.Click to expand...
Your claim to have been a Monergist falls on deaf ears because you constantly reaffirm your ignorance of it.Click to expand...
I've corrected your fallacious arguments so many times that I'm losing track.Click to expand...
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