moral accountability

Helen,

I am not playing 20 questions with you, especially when you are not willing to answer one simple question from me about the soveriengty of God. I wonder why not? Are you embarrassed by your beliefs? Talk to you later. Let me know when you would like to engage in a two way conversation instead of an interogation.

Joseph Botwinick

 

That is not true. This is a Baptist Board. There are Baptists here from every stripe. Helen, you are a Baptist, aren't you? I would assume you are and understand that not all Baptists=Calvinists.

I am asking about some Calvinist beliefs I have read about. They do not make sense to me in terms of moral accountability.[/QUOTE]

You mean the Bible doesn't make sense to you? Because the doctrines of the Soveriegnty of God, Total depravity, Once saved always saved are taught in the Bible. Read your Bible and it will make more sense to you. OK?

If you cannot answer my questions, then don't get mad and snippy with me. Let someone more versed in your beliefs than you are answer if you cannot. [/QUOTE]

I have answered you questions. You refuse to answer one question. Again, I wonder why? Can you not answer my question, Helen? What are you afraid of?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Actually, you are wrong again, Helen. This is not a Calvinists Forum. Read the title of the forum. Then go back and read some previous threads and I think you will find that there are probably and equal amount of Arminians as there are Calvinists on this forum. One simple question makes a quiz? Why not answer a simple question? What are you afraid of? Are you embarrassed that your beliefs do not line up with the Bible? If you are so sure in your beliefs, then answer the question annd go on. Have an honest, open conversation, not a hostile, dishonest interogation.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Let's back off this rhetoric ... No need to pursue that line of discussion.

As for Helen's question, as a general rule, yes Calvinists tend to believe that. We base it on, among other things, the truth of Eph 1:11 that God is working (action verb, not a reaction verb) all thing (how much can you leave out and still have all things) after the counsel of his own will (not someone else's).

While we might think the falling of a leaf is trivial, remember God is infinite. REmember also that "working" does not imply direct causation; God does work his will through secondary causation, preventing the charge that God is the author of sin.

Remember that God's decreed will (even evil such as the crucifixion of Christ) does not absolve man of moral responsiblity. This is an area where I believe we set our own logical needs aside in favor of the declared expression of God's will. Man is morally responsible because he willfully chooses to engage in certain acts. Remember, CAlvinists do not believe that God is forcing man to do anything. They are doing exaclty what they want to do because of their moral makeup of sin.

 

I agree with Pastor Larry. Yes, God controls everything.

That's what I see recorded in scripture, and it also seems to be the only logical conclusion, if one accepts that God is all-knowing and all-powerful.

 

I cannot change the color of my skin or the brain I have been given. But within the realm of how he has created me he has given me the choice to eat corn flakes or eggs for breakfast. He has given me the choice to sin or not to sin. He has given me the choice to walk with him or do my own thing. If that were not the case then why would men ever need to be persuaded? Why would Jesus ever made any appeals to come follow him? If God creates perfect robots then it would seem that he has erred by creating everyone who at times does not bring glory to him. Why would God create something that does not bring glory to him especially if he never gives any choice? It is his choice for us to bring glory to him. But it is our choice to bring glory or not to God.

It is God's choice to give us the consequences of our sin and that without partiality. God does not tempt anyone. He does not tempt me to sin. So if he does not tempt me to sin then why is their sin if were God choice of what I do, to sin or not sin.

I amalways reminded of Mt. 22:1-12, "Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. "Again he sent out other slaves saying, `Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast." '"But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. "Then he said to his slaves, `The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. `Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.' "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, `Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. "Then the king said to the servants, `Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are called , but few are chosen."

Who are the called and who are the chosen? How many are called?

 

Helen,

While you were posting your big response to Larry, I posted as well right before you.

What I'm asking you is this: How can an all-powerful, all-knowing God NOT be in control of everything?

 

I would disagree on two points. First, the reason I said "tend to believe" is because I can't speak for every single person who claims to be a Calvinist. Now on to your point ...

A fair legal system is based on what people actually do. God judges people based on what they actually do. We also come back to the point about coercion. They are not being coerced to do something. They are doing it freely and the knowledge that they should not be doing such is known to them.

Your last statement is address by a statement in teh previous post: This is an area where I said: "I believe we set our own logical needs aside in favor of the declared expression of God's will."

People on your side are generally fond of declareing Calvinism to be a system driven by logic. Yet Calvinists are willing to let stand what you would consider illogical because of our commitment to the text of Scripture (as we understand it). I don't believe we should check our minds at the door. I think Christianity is a thinking man's religion, so to speak. But we cannot let logic be the determining factor. Truth be told, I believe it is your side that is driven by logic more than ours, though both involve logic to be sure. BTW, being logical is not wrong. But it has its limits.

I don't think this is a valid conclusion based on the meaning of hte word and the context of Scripture. The word means to work. The context is God bringing about that which he has predestined from eternity past. I think it corresponds perfectly with Rom 8:28 which is immediately followed by that passage that discusses God's work that ultimately and inevitably ends in glorification of the individual.

We already know that he did this. Remember that Christ was crucified after being tortured all night long. That shows your conclusion to be a just one. And it conforms perfectly with Scripture. It does not let those people off the hook. It does not excuse them, just as it didn't excuse those who crucified Christ. But again, we can't let our personal logic determine what God can and cannot do. We must rely on what he said he did and what he determined to be right.

 

helen go to this site and read this Are There Two Wills in God? i believe it will answer your dillema let me know what you think >> http://www.desiringgod.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html


here is an excerpt from the site>>>>It goes almost without saying that God wills obedience to his moral law, and that he wills this in a way that can be rejected by many. This is evident from numerous texts: "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will (thelema) of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). "Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven, he is my brother and sister and mother" (Matthew 12:50). "The one who does the will of God abides forever" (1 John 2:17). The "will of God" in these texts is the revealed, moral instruction of the Old and New Testaments, which proscribes sin.

Therefore we know it was not the "will of God" that Judas and Pilate and Herod and the Gentile soldiers and the Jewish crowds disobey the moral law of God by sinning in delivering Jesus up to be crucified. But we also know that it was the will of God that this come to pass. Therefore we know that God in some sense wills what he does not will in another sense. I. Howard Marshall's statement is confirmed by the death of Jesus: "We must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen."

 

Helen,

There are some things in your post that do not follow.

You write For if a man is predestined for something, and that predestination is of God, then that predestination is good.

This is assuming a way too much! Take the falling-away of Israel for an example. Was Israel predestined to fall? Yes. Was that good? No.

Why do I say that Israel was predestined to fall? Simply because it did. Psalm 115:3 (ESV) says, "Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases."

Therefore Israel sinned. The "WHY" of the whole thing was to create a culture in which Christ would be crucified--A culture hostile to God as He has revealed Himself in the Bible.

You continue Therefore someone who would even attempt to interfere with that predestined act is attempting to thwart God's will and therefore is doing something wrong and sinning.

Again, God cannot be thwarted--ever. If He could be, then He would not be sovereign.

I see what you're trying to get at. However it is similar to the "Could God build a rock so big that He could not lift it" arguement. In essence, your arguement is trying to establish the existance of "Round Triangles" and "Three-sided Squares." They are no-things, as C.S.Lewis would say.

Blessings,

Archangel