-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
moral accountability
- Thread starter Helen
- Start date
helen it seems to me you are trying to figure out God. just trust His character even though you cannot reconcile free will or calvanism or the scripture that speaks of Gods purpose. i remember the first serious time of reading about pharaoh and the hardening of his heart, it was hard to swallow. but read that site i gave you it might change your thinking.
Don't we do that as parents all the time when we knowingly allow (or will) them to disobey us so that they will understand the consequences of their disobedience and obey our rules in the future? We will them to disobey us because it serves a good purpose--showing them that they need the guidance of our rules. We don't want them to disobey, because we want our children to follow our rules, and also we don't want them to be hurt by the natural consequences of their actions.
Don't we do that as parents all the time when we knowingly allow (or will) them to disobey us so that they will understand the consequences of their disobedience and obey our rules in the future? We will them to disobey us because it serves a good purpose--showing them that they need the guidance of our rules. We don't want them to disobey, because we want our children to follow our rules, and also we don't want them to be hurt by the natural consequences of their actions. </font>[/QUOTE]Are you saying that disobedience is God's will? As parents we are not honored by the disobedinece of our children. Disobedience does not negate the idea that God can and does use disobience to teach us when we do wrong. Be he is praised and glorified through our obedience. Are you promoting the idea what Paul addressses in Ro. 6:1,2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
In one sense, it is--he permits it for His good purpose. When he permits it, there is always some good purpose he is accomplishing from it, even though we may not understand it.
In another sense, it is not, for it always goes against the code he expects us to live by.
No, we are not, and we are not honoring God when we disobey him. But that doesn't mean that God doesn't use disobedience to accomplish his will, and in using that disobedience to accomplish his will, he does receive honor--not from our disobedient deed, but from what he accomplished through it. Joseph's brothers were dishonoring God when they sold him into Egyptian slavery, and yet that act was part of God's good plan to preserve them all in the famine. They meant it for evil (God-dishonoring), but God meant it for a good purpose (God-honoring), and by accomplishing that good plan through the disobedient act of Joseph's brothers, God was honored.
Of course not! We are always accountable for our disobedience--its an immoral thing for us to do. It goes against God's standards for our behaviour. It is God dishonoring. But that doesn't mean that God doesn't accomplish good things that honor him through disobedience. All through scripture we see that happening: in the story of Joseph, the story of Daniel, when the king of Assyria goes up against Israel, Christ's crucifixion, etc. etc. etc.
I think Romans 3 addresses your question, where Paul poses the question, If my unrighteous demonstrates the rightoues of God, how can he judge me? I am simply making him look more righteous by my unrightesousness. How can we be held responsible for magnifying his holiness?
He makes it clear that while you are right in that assumption, it does not excuse you and God is not unjust in punishing you. Paul's conclusion is that all are sinners and are deserving of just punishment. God is not unjust to punish those who exalt his glory through their sinful choices.
He makes it clear that while you are right in that assumption, it does not excuse you and God is not unjust in punishing you. Paul's conclusion is that all are sinners and are deserving of just punishment. God is not unjust to punish those who exalt his glory through their sinful choices.
massdak,, No, I am not trying to figure out God; I am trying to figure out Calvinism and its view of God. There is a difference – at least I hope you agree there is a difference! As far as the character of God is concerned, I do trust it. At least I will say that much about my own beliefs right now – but I think you already knew that about me…
It’s an interesting thing about the Pharaoh and the hardening of his heart. He had to harden it himself at least five times before God stepped in and hardened it for him! Yet God obviously knew it would happen, for He had already informed Moses as to the final result. So the question here becomes “Did God’s foreknowledge mean that it was His will?”
russell55, You asked, “Don't we do that as parents all the time when we knowingly allow (or will) them to disobey us so that they will understand the consequences of their disobedience and obey our rules in the future?“
And I would say “absolutely NOT!” That is why I explained the consequences first, so they would not have to find out for themselves. I never wanted them to disobey, even though I knew there were times that they would. Unlike God, I did not know WHICH times, or in what way, they would disobey, but I knew there would be plenty of instances, and that I would have to be willing to discipline them. But when they obeyed, I rejoiced. And, through the years, as a child showed more and more willingness to cooperate with my directions, my trust in that child would grow and a partnership and friendship was established which was not possible before that habit of obedience.
Going from human to God here, are you trying to imply that when He said “Thou shalt have no other gods before me,” that He really WANTED us to have other gods before Him so we could learn something? When He said, “Honor thy father and thy mother” that He really wanted us to dishonor them? That He really wants us to steal, commit adultery, lie, covet, make idols? That is not the God I know, to put it really bluntly.
You then stated later that because He permits something it then shows that it, in some way, is part of His will. How can He, in ANY part of His will, desire someone to do something He has forbidden? The God I know is not psychotic!
The fact that nothing that happens is beyond His ability to use or beyond His sovereignty to control is a whole lot different than saying He willed disobedience to Him.
You have this ‘in one sense’ and ‘in another sense’ regarding God’s will. Does He will disobedience or not? He either does or He doesn’t. I don’t argue that He knew all about it all along, but if it is a matter of His will being accomplished in disobeying Him, we have a contradiction here between what He tells us and what He ‘really’ wants. That would make Him a liar, a deceiver. That is not the God I know.
And finally, to wander back to the point of this thread originally, if we are accountable for our disobedience, then there must have been a real choice somewhere along the line in each of our lives. But if God is controlling everything I do and say and think and am, then He is responsible for what I do. Always. In all things, just as Pastor Larry said – all means all.
From what I understand, Calvinism says we have no choice because we are dead in our sins. And ‘dead’ is translated in this theology as incapable of responding. And yet Calvinism admits to the ability to respond in rebellion. If a dead person is incapable of responding in one way, how then can he respond in the other? He either can or cannot respond, period. And if the Calvinist idea of dead is likened to the idea of a corpse in its inability to respond, who on earth (or anywhere else) would try to hold a corpse accountable for anything? What can it do but be food for worms?
Pastor Larry, You made this incredible statement:
Paul's conclusion is that all are sinners and are deserving of just punishment. God is not unjust to punish those who exalt his glory through their sinful choices.
Exalt God through sinful choices? N
NE exalts God that way. God is exalted because of His actions regarding those choices. However if the person had been obedient, he would have exalted God through His obedience. But disobedience is the intent to defy God, not exalt Him. God exalts Himself then in His own actions.
When a fish swims, it is doing what a fish does. It does not have a choice regarding walking or flying. Would it then be just to punish it for swimming?
And if an unregenerate person has no choice but to sin (and this question I asked about earlier and it was ignored/avoided/not seen), then he, too is acting just as much according to his nature as the fish is in swimming. How then is it just to punish him for what he had absolutely no choice about?
To all the Calvinists here: Here is the second part of the dilemma posed by the original post here about the man could save another: If the potential savior is an unregenerate person, then he will automatically do, according to Calvinism, that which is sinful. He has no choice. So whatever he perceives as sinful, he will do, and since God judges the heart, we really don’t need to argue about which choice he made regarding the dying man.
But wait a minute: God is in complete and absolute control. Of everything. Therefore He is not only controlling the unregenerate person’s desires, but his conclusions and actions as well.
So there is the second reason we dare not judge the man!
If the man is regenerate, then God is still controlling him completely and the difference is that the man will do what is right, but we still don’t know what that is! We are left in a position of judging right behavior because someone is regenerate and wrong behavior because someone is NOT regenerate.
AND YET, as John says in his first epistle, we all sin!
At this point we have wiped out all standards of right and wrong available to man.
This is what I find absolutely contrary to Bible. As well as the idea that God would will what He would not want.
Is God’s will not perfect?
It’s an interesting thing about the Pharaoh and the hardening of his heart. He had to harden it himself at least five times before God stepped in and hardened it for him! Yet God obviously knew it would happen, for He had already informed Moses as to the final result. So the question here becomes “Did God’s foreknowledge mean that it was His will?”
russell55, You asked, “Don't we do that as parents all the time when we knowingly allow (or will) them to disobey us so that they will understand the consequences of their disobedience and obey our rules in the future?“
And I would say “absolutely NOT!” That is why I explained the consequences first, so they would not have to find out for themselves. I never wanted them to disobey, even though I knew there were times that they would. Unlike God, I did not know WHICH times, or in what way, they would disobey, but I knew there would be plenty of instances, and that I would have to be willing to discipline them. But when they obeyed, I rejoiced. And, through the years, as a child showed more and more willingness to cooperate with my directions, my trust in that child would grow and a partnership and friendship was established which was not possible before that habit of obedience.
Going from human to God here, are you trying to imply that when He said “Thou shalt have no other gods before me,” that He really WANTED us to have other gods before Him so we could learn something? When He said, “Honor thy father and thy mother” that He really wanted us to dishonor them? That He really wants us to steal, commit adultery, lie, covet, make idols? That is not the God I know, to put it really bluntly.
You then stated later that because He permits something it then shows that it, in some way, is part of His will. How can He, in ANY part of His will, desire someone to do something He has forbidden? The God I know is not psychotic!
The fact that nothing that happens is beyond His ability to use or beyond His sovereignty to control is a whole lot different than saying He willed disobedience to Him.
You have this ‘in one sense’ and ‘in another sense’ regarding God’s will. Does He will disobedience or not? He either does or He doesn’t. I don’t argue that He knew all about it all along, but if it is a matter of His will being accomplished in disobeying Him, we have a contradiction here between what He tells us and what He ‘really’ wants. That would make Him a liar, a deceiver. That is not the God I know.
And finally, to wander back to the point of this thread originally, if we are accountable for our disobedience, then there must have been a real choice somewhere along the line in each of our lives. But if God is controlling everything I do and say and think and am, then He is responsible for what I do. Always. In all things, just as Pastor Larry said – all means all.
From what I understand, Calvinism says we have no choice because we are dead in our sins. And ‘dead’ is translated in this theology as incapable of responding. And yet Calvinism admits to the ability to respond in rebellion. If a dead person is incapable of responding in one way, how then can he respond in the other? He either can or cannot respond, period. And if the Calvinist idea of dead is likened to the idea of a corpse in its inability to respond, who on earth (or anywhere else) would try to hold a corpse accountable for anything? What can it do but be food for worms?
Pastor Larry, You made this incredible statement:
Paul's conclusion is that all are sinners and are deserving of just punishment. God is not unjust to punish those who exalt his glory through their sinful choices.
Exalt God through sinful choices? N
NE exalts God that way. God is exalted because of His actions regarding those choices. However if the person had been obedient, he would have exalted God through His obedience. But disobedience is the intent to defy God, not exalt Him. God exalts Himself then in His own actions. When a fish swims, it is doing what a fish does. It does not have a choice regarding walking or flying. Would it then be just to punish it for swimming?
And if an unregenerate person has no choice but to sin (and this question I asked about earlier and it was ignored/avoided/not seen), then he, too is acting just as much according to his nature as the fish is in swimming. How then is it just to punish him for what he had absolutely no choice about?
To all the Calvinists here: Here is the second part of the dilemma posed by the original post here about the man could save another: If the potential savior is an unregenerate person, then he will automatically do, according to Calvinism, that which is sinful. He has no choice. So whatever he perceives as sinful, he will do, and since God judges the heart, we really don’t need to argue about which choice he made regarding the dying man.
But wait a minute: God is in complete and absolute control. Of everything. Therefore He is not only controlling the unregenerate person’s desires, but his conclusions and actions as well.
So there is the second reason we dare not judge the man!
If the man is regenerate, then God is still controlling him completely and the difference is that the man will do what is right, but we still don’t know what that is! We are left in a position of judging right behavior because someone is regenerate and wrong behavior because someone is NOT regenerate.
AND YET, as John says in his first epistle, we all sin!
At this point we have wiped out all standards of right and wrong available to man.
This is what I find absolutely contrary to Bible. As well as the idea that God would will what He would not want.
Is God’s will not perfect?
helen you said this>>This is what I find absolutely contrary to Bible. As well as the idea that God would will what He would not want.
Is God’s will not perfect?
this statement was answered in the site i provided you. really read it all the way through.
it is obvious in the bible that God lets evil happen when God could surely wipe it out in a split second. God does allow evil to happen but God is not condoning it He uses it to His purpose.
Do you believe God let Pharaoh do evil to His people for a purpose?
Is God’s will not perfect?
this statement was answered in the site i provided you. really read it all the way through.
it is obvious in the bible that God lets evil happen when God could surely wipe it out in a split second. God does allow evil to happen but God is not condoning it He uses it to His purpose.
Do you believe God let Pharaoh do evil to His people for a purpose?
No, He didn't want them to have other gods. But He could have prevented them from worshipping other Gods, and He chose not to. And He didn't chose not to prevent them out of whimsy or arbitrariness, but for a good purpose. And anything God decides to do for a purpose can be called "His will."
You really only have these choices:
God doesn't know what people will do.
God can't prevent the free choices of men.
God is disinterested in human affairs and sometimes doesn't pay attention, so things can catch him off guard.
God is whimsical or arbitrary in what he doesn't keep from happening.
God makes the choice to allow bad things to happen for good reasons.
Can you think of another alternative?
He allows disobedient acts to take place because they suit his purposes. He intends those disobedient acts to accomplish good things.
What do you think it means when it says, of the disobedient act of Joseph's brothers, "You intended it for evil, but God intended it for good." Did God intend for Joseph's brothers to do what they did or not? What do you think the text means here? Shouldn't we be drawing our conclusions about this from the text?
Of course there are real choices. All of our choices are real ones. We look at the alternatives, and choose what we want to.
God is not pulling your strings. He does not MAKE you do anything. The Holy Spirit only directly moves in good choices. All bad choices are made through God's permission, not his action. Your bad choice may be certain (by virtue of God's decision to allow you to make it), but it is never necessary.
No, Calvinism says we have a real choice. We always choose to rebel because of our sinful condition.
The incapability is due to our intransigent desire to rebel against God. We could respond positively IF WE WANTED TO. We have the choice, we look at the alternatives, and say, "Ooh, ick. I don't want follow Christ. I like following the prince of the power of the air. I like fulfilling the desires of my flesh and of my mind. Submitting myself to someone else seems "unnatural" to me."
He is incapable of responding one way, because he hates that alternative. He is capable of responding the other way because that way appeals to him.
Now, can I get you to answer my question about Joseph's brothers and God's intent? What does that statement mean?
Oh, he could certainly choose to do the socially correct thing. But it won't be a righteous act because it won't be done out of faith or out of love for God.
He has a choice.....
Oh no...he may indeed do what he perceives as right. But it won't be a righteous act in God's eyes, but as a filthy rag, because it is not done to please the God who is.
I'm probably dense cuz I don't understand this statement....
But God controls not only through direct action (by the agency of the Spirit) but by indirect action and decisive inaction. He does not cause the unregenerate person's desires--those desires are a natural consequence of being born into a corrupt race of people. God's part is choosing to allow Adam to sin, and choosing to allow all of us to suffer the natural consequences that comes from being one of Adam's descendents.
Once again, I don't follow. He can be judged because his intentions were not good, can't he?
He certainly has the influence of the Holy Spirit within him. But he sometimes makes choices according to the vestiges of sin still in him. He never makes choices outside of what God allows him to chose, but he doesn't always choose according to the direct influence of the Spirit.
We always know what is right for us to do. That's what all those commands in scripture are for--telling us what is right. We may not know what God is planning in any given situation, but we do know how we can act in a morally correct way. ]
We judge right and wrong behaviour by God's moral code as recorded for us in scripture. Regenerate people do wrong things, Unregenerate never do truly righteous things because of God's command that everything must be done from faith--out of a desire to honor Him.
God controls everything.
if God is perfect infinite and sovereign over his creation. then he must control the movement of every atom to every thought.
It is not that he "wills" our actions to possibly occur.
He causes them.. or can you tell me where your memories go or your thoughts come from?
could we even possibly imagine that God has designed our lives to the degree that our every thought with its hopes and dreams. its imaginations and plans. Its intentions and results. Its failures and successes are all designed to create a living soul that God can be glorified in creating.
A soul that EVERY man born can glorify God concerning its creation.
A soul that is individually and distinctfully loved of God.
(these statements are not for those who think that this life is our ONLY chance of attaining Gods goals for us.. for MANY leave this PHYSICAL life incomplete.)
From the beginning of time, God has designed an interactive life for every human being on earth. from its creation through many ages to come.
God is creating mankind through the usage of many ages of progressive change.
Face it folks. we are mere passengers in a flesh body designed and operated by God.
For Gods ways ARE perfect. with perfect results.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
perfect plan, perfect execution.
if God is perfect infinite and sovereign over his creation. then he must control the movement of every atom to every thought.
It is not that he "wills" our actions to possibly occur.
He causes them.. or can you tell me where your memories go or your thoughts come from?
could we even possibly imagine that God has designed our lives to the degree that our every thought with its hopes and dreams. its imaginations and plans. Its intentions and results. Its failures and successes are all designed to create a living soul that God can be glorified in creating.
A soul that EVERY man born can glorify God concerning its creation.
A soul that is individually and distinctfully loved of God.
(these statements are not for those who think that this life is our ONLY chance of attaining Gods goals for us.. for MANY leave this PHYSICAL life incomplete.)
From the beginning of time, God has designed an interactive life for every human being on earth. from its creation through many ages to come.
God is creating mankind through the usage of many ages of progressive change.
Face it folks. we are mere passengers in a flesh body designed and operated by God.
For Gods ways ARE perfect. with perfect results.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
perfect plan, perfect execution.
russell55, I appreciate the time you are taking to answer.
I would like to bring back the discussion to the topic of the thread, which is moral accountability. I understand this involves a lot of the other side issues, but I don’t want to stray so far we lose sight of the questions about moral accountability.
You stated, though, that God did not prevent the pagans from having other gods “not…out of whimsy or arbitrariness, but for a good purpose.” But Calvinism goes further than this: it states that He CAUSED them to worship other gods, as He is in control of everything.
And my points here are these:
1. Then they can’t be judged for doing what they were caused to do by their Creator and Controller, and
2. God is not telling the truth when He gives the command not to worship other gods.
When you gave the possible options regarding God and man, you did leave out one: that God, in his sovereignty chose to allow man freedom to choose among various alternatives of thought and behavior, none of which remove the matter from God’s control and all of which are known since before creation by Him.
While looking up the ‘all’ verses earlier, in the other thread, I ran across this, which I had forgotten in terms of this discussion, in John 9:41: Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains..” This follows a discussion in which ‘blindness’ is used idiomatically for understanding, as in “Do you see?” So blindness there means a lack of understanding. And what Jesus is saying is that if a man does not understand [the law?], he is not guilty. This is exactly contrary to Calvinist teachings.
No matter which way I turn in the Bible, then, I see evidence of the free will which leads to moral accountability, for without a real choice there can be no moral accountability. A man without any moral choice of his own, but with predetermined actions, thoughts, words – he is exactly like the fish in water who simply does what he does because that is all he can do. There is no justice at all which can condemn a fish for swimming or, as Jesus implied, condemn an ignorant person of disobeying what he does not know.
Later you mentioned that the choice is real for sin, but that it is also always made by the unregenerate. If it is ALWAYS made, then they have no choice. But not only will I argue that they have a real moral choice in any action, but that they often choose what is beneficial to others (which we define in worldly terms as ‘good’), whether or not it is counted as filthy rags spiritually. There are many, many times when the unregenerate will obey the dictates of conscience faster than the Christian, or someone claiming to be Christian, will obey the command of God to love thy neighbor!
Keep in mind, please, that the decisions made by the unregenerate usually have nothing to do with the idea of following the devil or rejecting God – their decisions are made along other lines: perhaps self-gratification, perhaps avoidance of punishment, perhaps protecting oneself, perhaps a response to someone else’s need. And while these may not count as righteousness where God is concerned, neither are they conscious decisions to follow Satan!
You stated, ”He allows disobedient acts to take place because they suit his purposes. He intends those disobedient acts to accomplish good things.”
I agree with you fully regarding the first sentence and disagree with you just as fully regarding the second. In that vein, would you please give me any Scripture at all which says God INTENDS disobedient acts? Thank you.
The verse about Joseph and his brothers is spoken by Joseph. God allowed the action because He could use it. But He did not cause the action. The action was the clear result of the hatred and jealousy in the brothers’ hearts (it may also have been something of a reaction against what may have been a spoiled, braggart little brother!). Now I agree that the brothers would not have been able to do what they did had God not had a use for it. This, however, would not have stopped them from wanting to do it! The choice was theirs, start to finish. The allowance was God’s, for the benefit of those who loved Him. The foreknowledge was also God’s. But foreknowledge is not the same as foreordination. What I want is a Scripture which states that God actually intends others to commit disobedient acts, not that He knows what to do with them.
You said we choose what we want to do.
If only!
What I WANT is very often not what I choose, for a variety of reasons: economic, care of others, a sense of duty, etc. And, like Paul, I sometimes find myself in the position of wanting to do one thing and actually doing another in the sense of sinning when I don’t want to sin! So no, it is not a matter of wants. It is a matter of choosing among alternatives for any number of reasons.
Judging from the next part of your post, I can only assume you disagree with Calvinists who state God is in control of every tiny detail of what we think and say and do. But you do consider yourself a Calvinist?
Where does God’s control end, in your life, for instance?
Is that then the limit of His sovereignty in your life?
Regarding your second post, you are right – you did not understand what I was getting at. But don’t fuss about that. We have enough going with this one.
I would like to bring back the discussion to the topic of the thread, which is moral accountability. I understand this involves a lot of the other side issues, but I don’t want to stray so far we lose sight of the questions about moral accountability.
You stated, though, that God did not prevent the pagans from having other gods “not…out of whimsy or arbitrariness, but for a good purpose.” But Calvinism goes further than this: it states that He CAUSED them to worship other gods, as He is in control of everything.
And my points here are these:
1. Then they can’t be judged for doing what they were caused to do by their Creator and Controller, and
2. God is not telling the truth when He gives the command not to worship other gods.
When you gave the possible options regarding God and man, you did leave out one: that God, in his sovereignty chose to allow man freedom to choose among various alternatives of thought and behavior, none of which remove the matter from God’s control and all of which are known since before creation by Him.
While looking up the ‘all’ verses earlier, in the other thread, I ran across this, which I had forgotten in terms of this discussion, in John 9:41: Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains..” This follows a discussion in which ‘blindness’ is used idiomatically for understanding, as in “Do you see?” So blindness there means a lack of understanding. And what Jesus is saying is that if a man does not understand [the law?], he is not guilty. This is exactly contrary to Calvinist teachings.
No matter which way I turn in the Bible, then, I see evidence of the free will which leads to moral accountability, for without a real choice there can be no moral accountability. A man without any moral choice of his own, but with predetermined actions, thoughts, words – he is exactly like the fish in water who simply does what he does because that is all he can do. There is no justice at all which can condemn a fish for swimming or, as Jesus implied, condemn an ignorant person of disobeying what he does not know.
Later you mentioned that the choice is real for sin, but that it is also always made by the unregenerate. If it is ALWAYS made, then they have no choice. But not only will I argue that they have a real moral choice in any action, but that they often choose what is beneficial to others (which we define in worldly terms as ‘good’), whether or not it is counted as filthy rags spiritually. There are many, many times when the unregenerate will obey the dictates of conscience faster than the Christian, or someone claiming to be Christian, will obey the command of God to love thy neighbor!
Keep in mind, please, that the decisions made by the unregenerate usually have nothing to do with the idea of following the devil or rejecting God – their decisions are made along other lines: perhaps self-gratification, perhaps avoidance of punishment, perhaps protecting oneself, perhaps a response to someone else’s need. And while these may not count as righteousness where God is concerned, neither are they conscious decisions to follow Satan!
You stated, ”He allows disobedient acts to take place because they suit his purposes. He intends those disobedient acts to accomplish good things.”
I agree with you fully regarding the first sentence and disagree with you just as fully regarding the second. In that vein, would you please give me any Scripture at all which says God INTENDS disobedient acts? Thank you.
The verse about Joseph and his brothers is spoken by Joseph. God allowed the action because He could use it. But He did not cause the action. The action was the clear result of the hatred and jealousy in the brothers’ hearts (it may also have been something of a reaction against what may have been a spoiled, braggart little brother!). Now I agree that the brothers would not have been able to do what they did had God not had a use for it. This, however, would not have stopped them from wanting to do it! The choice was theirs, start to finish. The allowance was God’s, for the benefit of those who loved Him. The foreknowledge was also God’s. But foreknowledge is not the same as foreordination. What I want is a Scripture which states that God actually intends others to commit disobedient acts, not that He knows what to do with them.
You said we choose what we want to do.
If only!
What I WANT is very often not what I choose, for a variety of reasons: economic, care of others, a sense of duty, etc. And, like Paul, I sometimes find myself in the position of wanting to do one thing and actually doing another in the sense of sinning when I don’t want to sin! So no, it is not a matter of wants. It is a matter of choosing among alternatives for any number of reasons.
Judging from the next part of your post, I can only assume you disagree with Calvinists who state God is in control of every tiny detail of what we think and say and do. But you do consider yourself a Calvinist?
Where does God’s control end, in your life, for instance?
Is that then the limit of His sovereignty in your life?
Regarding your second post, you are right – you did not understand what I was getting at. But don’t fuss about that. We have enough going with this one.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Me2,
In the creation of the Heavens and the Earth, God set everything in motion for perpetuity. Therefore, God established the paths of the stars, the trajectories of the comets, etc. etc. On the earth, God set the rotation of the earth and the revolution of both the earth and the moon around the sun. God established the laws by which the natural realm must operate. He does not therefore need to keep his hand on each and every solid object in space, or on the earth. Is God in Control? Yes, but he need not continue moment to moment control because all there is obeys Gods predetermined course for it. Man is the same, God established the parameters for man. God gave all mankind courses to follow, courses that have intersection and forks in the road. He did not give man the things of deity. But all men have pathways with crossroads whereby man must make decision. How else can God be able to say "well done my good and faithful servant"? How can there be rewards if there is no effort for man to do or choices for man to make? If God is in direct control of each and every man and each action each man takes, then there is nothing for God to reward. If God was in Control of Paul, then how is it that Paul can boast that he has faithfully run the race?
No Me2, God is not controlling every little detail of each man. He expects us to use our own God given brain and think things through. He expects us to act upon the knowledge that He allows us to collect and maintain. He expects us to do those things that He gave us to do in His Holy Word.
Your stated beliefs indicate that you are not thinking things through.
In the creation of the Heavens and the Earth, God set everything in motion for perpetuity. Therefore, God established the paths of the stars, the trajectories of the comets, etc. etc. On the earth, God set the rotation of the earth and the revolution of both the earth and the moon around the sun. God established the laws by which the natural realm must operate. He does not therefore need to keep his hand on each and every solid object in space, or on the earth. Is God in Control? Yes, but he need not continue moment to moment control because all there is obeys Gods predetermined course for it. Man is the same, God established the parameters for man. God gave all mankind courses to follow, courses that have intersection and forks in the road. He did not give man the things of deity. But all men have pathways with crossroads whereby man must make decision. How else can God be able to say "well done my good and faithful servant"? How can there be rewards if there is no effort for man to do or choices for man to make? If God is in direct control of each and every man and each action each man takes, then there is nothing for God to reward. If God was in Control of Paul, then how is it that Paul can boast that he has faithfully run the race?
No Me2, God is not controlling every little detail of each man. He expects us to use our own God given brain and think things through. He expects us to act upon the knowledge that He allows us to collect and maintain. He expects us to do those things that He gave us to do in His Holy Word.
Your stated beliefs indicate that you are not thinking things through.
Yelsew,
If I was to desire to create a child. i would desire the child to have a perfect and good life because I love the child.
yet I am jealous of control.
I also must not be challenged in my determinations for I know whats best for MY child.
My desire therefore towards the childs behalf is to plan the childs life to prevent injury and to avoid "bad choices" made by the child due to ignorance.
Now advance this idea to infinity and perfection and total sovereignty.
This is God dealing with his children.
namely all of His creation.
Has God stated that he declares his plans for mankind AFTER they have been successfully completed?
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
his pleasure is to gather all things "in christ"
(meaning all his children)
to do this perfectly is to place all mankind into death and then to resurrect them from death, into christ.(1 cor 15:22)
and yelsew..I mean spiritual death. NOT PHYSICAL DEATH. mankind is resurrected from spiritual death.
Now does man understand this feat?.
Can man accomplish this feat?
this is a Sovereign God in action.
Now Did satan fall or did God create him to represent evil? (isa 45:7) therefore God has his fall Guy, yet God still in his sovereignty commands satans every thought and action.. God is in complete control.
Was satan with God in Gods planning stages of Creation before the foundation of the world, or did God plan the fall of man and all transgressions man makes WITHOUT SATANS HELP?
I understand this to be complex, yet it must seen in the light of reaching Gods goal of everything being concluded as "all in all".(eph 1:23; 1 cor 15:28)
As I repeat my claim that for God to be completely
sovereign, God has created not only lives of all individuals. but also the means of developing evils transgressions against man through satans suggestions.
but that in the culmination of bringing glory to God. Each transgression must be covered over by the knowledge of the corresponding truth of Gods goodness as well as mercy and forgiveness. The transgression is covered by the propitiation as well as we also receive the understanding and knowledge of the evil as well as good.
Gods Glory is To cover Transgressions. more transgressions the more Glory is Given to him by Man.
Yet man will comprehend this truth as each transgression covered brings the soul of man that much more closer to understanding the knowledge of Our Lord Jesus Christ and his righteousness.
your idea that Jesus died for all sin of the world is stated in the bible, yet I doubt you understand the implications.
the implication is that all transgressions will someday be covered over bringing the transgressor closer to our Lord by understanding the defeat of the power of sin in their life. namely death.
(thats every transgressor, every sin)
absolving the transgressor of the responsibility of the offense, yet also forever associating the transgressor with the moral accountability of the offense.
teaching the transgressor the associated knowledge of Good and Evil.
Just Like adam. We get the knowledge of Good and evil as well as we also receive the spirit of Life.
now for moral accountability. what do we discover in the goal. we receive the knowledge of Good and evil. We receive eternal life. we become living witnesses to the glory of God through the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
We comprehend that righteousness (good) far outweighs unrighteousness (evil). to the point that the unrighteousness of mankind is void and powerless. it is covered over within the perfect sovereign planning of God towards each individual God expresses his love towards.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
and Helen,
we are held to the moral accountability. we did the crime. we will remember our actions forever as they provide evidence of the knowledge associated with the evil transgression. yet God has taken all responsibility away from us by his love.
Me2
If I was to desire to create a child. i would desire the child to have a perfect and good life because I love the child.
yet I am jealous of control.
I also must not be challenged in my determinations for I know whats best for MY child.
My desire therefore towards the childs behalf is to plan the childs life to prevent injury and to avoid "bad choices" made by the child due to ignorance.
Now advance this idea to infinity and perfection and total sovereignty.
This is God dealing with his children.
namely all of His creation.
Has God stated that he declares his plans for mankind AFTER they have been successfully completed?
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
his pleasure is to gather all things "in christ"
(meaning all his children)
to do this perfectly is to place all mankind into death and then to resurrect them from death, into christ.(1 cor 15:22)
and yelsew..I mean spiritual death. NOT PHYSICAL DEATH. mankind is resurrected from spiritual death.
Now does man understand this feat?.
Can man accomplish this feat?
this is a Sovereign God in action.
Now Did satan fall or did God create him to represent evil? (isa 45:7) therefore God has his fall Guy, yet God still in his sovereignty commands satans every thought and action.. God is in complete control.
Was satan with God in Gods planning stages of Creation before the foundation of the world, or did God plan the fall of man and all transgressions man makes WITHOUT SATANS HELP?
I understand this to be complex, yet it must seen in the light of reaching Gods goal of everything being concluded as "all in all".(eph 1:23; 1 cor 15:28)
As I repeat my claim that for God to be completely
sovereign, God has created not only lives of all individuals. but also the means of developing evils transgressions against man through satans suggestions.
but that in the culmination of bringing glory to God. Each transgression must be covered over by the knowledge of the corresponding truth of Gods goodness as well as mercy and forgiveness. The transgression is covered by the propitiation as well as we also receive the understanding and knowledge of the evil as well as good.
Gods Glory is To cover Transgressions. more transgressions the more Glory is Given to him by Man.
Yet man will comprehend this truth as each transgression covered brings the soul of man that much more closer to understanding the knowledge of Our Lord Jesus Christ and his righteousness.
your idea that Jesus died for all sin of the world is stated in the bible, yet I doubt you understand the implications.
the implication is that all transgressions will someday be covered over bringing the transgressor closer to our Lord by understanding the defeat of the power of sin in their life. namely death.
(thats every transgressor, every sin)
absolving the transgressor of the responsibility of the offense, yet also forever associating the transgressor with the moral accountability of the offense.
teaching the transgressor the associated knowledge of Good and Evil.
Just Like adam. We get the knowledge of Good and evil as well as we also receive the spirit of Life.
now for moral accountability. what do we discover in the goal. we receive the knowledge of Good and evil. We receive eternal life. we become living witnesses to the glory of God through the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
We comprehend that righteousness (good) far outweighs unrighteousness (evil). to the point that the unrighteousness of mankind is void and powerless. it is covered over within the perfect sovereign planning of God towards each individual God expresses his love towards.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
and Helen,
we are held to the moral accountability. we did the crime. we will remember our actions forever as they provide evidence of the knowledge associated with the evil transgression. yet God has taken all responsibility away from us by his love.
Me2
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Shorten it up Me2! Stick to one thought at a time, you wander worse than I do.
God established the maze, it is up to man to work his way through the maze. That involves recognition of truth, and choices. God controls in that God established the maze. He controls in that He previously provided for man along the way that man chooses to go. But, He does not stand at the crossroads and tell us what decision to make. He allows us to decide on our own whether to turn right or left, or go straight ahead.
God established in John 3:16 that if man believes in Jesus man shall have everlasting life. Then he accepted the death of Jesus as payment in full for the sins of the World, ALL sins of ALL times. The penalty of sin which was death, Romans 6:23, has been paid. We are not in jeopardy of our lives for the purpose of the penalty of sin. We are judged on our FAITH ALONE. If we have faith in the Christ, we have life, if we do not, we are cast into the lake of fire.
Is God in control? Yes because He established from the foundation of the world (before he created) all of the available choices man could have and act upon. Is he directing each and every movement of each and every man? NO! of course not. Once control has been established, it need not be attended to 24 X 7 x 365.
But you will not be able to see that truth, you are too mired down in you own religion!
God established the maze, it is up to man to work his way through the maze. That involves recognition of truth, and choices. God controls in that God established the maze. He controls in that He previously provided for man along the way that man chooses to go. But, He does not stand at the crossroads and tell us what decision to make. He allows us to decide on our own whether to turn right or left, or go straight ahead.
God established in John 3:16 that if man believes in Jesus man shall have everlasting life. Then he accepted the death of Jesus as payment in full for the sins of the World, ALL sins of ALL times. The penalty of sin which was death, Romans 6:23, has been paid. We are not in jeopardy of our lives for the purpose of the penalty of sin. We are judged on our FAITH ALONE. If we have faith in the Christ, we have life, if we do not, we are cast into the lake of fire.
Is God in control? Yes because He established from the foundation of the world (before he created) all of the available choices man could have and act upon. Is he directing each and every movement of each and every man? NO! of course not. Once control has been established, it need not be attended to 24 X 7 x 365.
But you will not be able to see that truth, you are too mired down in you own religion!
Yes, Calvinism says that (and I am a Calvinist), but we don't (or at least most wouldn't) mean it like you are taking it. God's causation of the worship of other gods is worked by way of permission or allowance. He controls it through the means of decisive inaction. He chooses not to prevent it. He lets people do what (ever since the fall) comes naturally to them--rejecting what they do know about the creator God and choosing instead to worhip something more like the creature.
Of course they can be judged for it--God did not create them sinful and God's causation is not direct (as explained above), but indirect. The motivation for their sinful act comes not from God, but from within their sinful hearts.
And God is indeed telling the truth. They ought to not worship other gods. They'd would really, truly save themselves a lot of grief if they didn't.
No, that's in there. That is
Your "good reason" is different from mine--allowing man's freedom to choose among various alternatives (Which, BTW, I--along with virtually all other Calvinists--don't deny exists. We just think man's freedom is not God's over-arching purpose in allowing sin into the world). I think God's "good reason" is to reveal Himself in all his facets-- holiness, righteous judgment against sin, mercy, etc.
No, because Calvinsts think that deep down, when they are all alone in a dark room, people understand what they ought to be doing. But they purposefully suppress that knowledge, because they prefer living in ignorance of God's righteous demands upon them. Any lack of understanding, any inability, is purposeful and willful coming from a sinful heart, from a hatred of the truth.
Absolutely. I agree.
Whoa! Wait...men have moral choice. Free moral choice. God's predetermination--as you are calling it--doesn't negate that. God works out that predetermined bad deed, thought, word through His inaction, through His nonintervention, by letting be what is, by giving free reign to unrighteous desires.
Since I always order the same kind of pizza, does that mean I really have no choice in the matter? That the other choices on the menu don't exist for me?
Absolutely. Calvinists don't deny the ability of the unregenerate to do civil good. They just can't please God with by their "goodness", because the only motive that makes an act truly good is love for God (or love for our neighbor that comes from our love for God).
No, they probably are not conscious decisions to follow Satan, but they are, nonetheless, following Satan. Every time I read those verses in Ephesians 2, I get the image of the children dancing off after the Pied Piper of Hamlin. They are drawn in by the enticing music. They may not recognize Satan, but they are certainly making conscious decisions to fulfill the desires of their flesh and of their mind when they follow the entrancing lilt of his flute.
And I think those two statements say EXACTLY the same thing. Allowing something for good purposes is intending it in order to accomplish good thing.
Sure. Isaiah 10. Acts 4:27, 28.
So you think Joseph was wrong? That he was mistakenly taken in by Calvinistic thinking?
I agree with all of this. I just consider allowing in order to bring about something good to be "intention" or "will".
Foreknowledge in a God with the power to prevent things, who chooses when and when not to intervene is indeed foreordination.
God controls everything in my life. Every day of my life was formed before I was and written down in God's book of my life. This is accomplished through God's direct action, and also through His choice of when not to directly act.
Read Romans 3.Originally posted by Helen:
massdak,, No, I am not trying to Pastor Larry, You made this incredible statement:
Paul's conclusion is that all are sinners and are deserving of just punishment. God is not unjust to punish those who exalt his glory through their sinful choices.
Exalt God through sinful choices? N
Romans 3:5-9 5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6 May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? 7 But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come "? Their condemnation is just. 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
The point Paul is making is that sinful choice magnify God's glory because it shows it more starkly. When you have a light gray mark on a white wall, the diffeence is hardly noticeable. When you have a jet black mark on a white wall the difference is eye catching. The point is that sin, against the background of God's perfect glory, shows the greatness of God's glory. It shows the stark distinction between them. This was Jonathan Edwards' answer to the question about why the existence of sin in the world. He said God permitted it to make his own glory even more apparent.
Paul's argument accepts that as true, and then poses the hypothetical question: Since my unrighteousness make the righteousness of God more glorious and apparent, should I not be more unrighteous because I am exalting God through it? And how can God punish me for making his righteousness magnified?
Paul warns against that kind of thinking. God is just to punish sin even though that sin makes his glory more evident and more attractive.
Because it is sinful. It is a violation of God's glory. He willfully participates in that sin. You keep avoiding that point. The sinner is doing exactly what he wants to do. He does not want to do anything else. He is able to do whatever what he wants.
I don't follow your reasoning at all here. YOu are trying to argue from a man saving another from drowning to the issue of sin in the rebellious. I think you are trying to bridge a gap that can't be bridged with that line of thought.