Multiplicity of English versions

[av1611jim]

Just for fun;
Pretend you are a brand new believer who just got saved this past sunday. You were saved out of a very anti-religious home. You have no clue.
Got the picture?
OK.
Then walk into a Christian bookstore and say, "I need a Bible."
The clerk walks you over to a row of shelves and shows you several styles of each of these;

(AAT) The Complete Bible: An American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, 1939.
(ABT) The Afro Bible Translation
(ATB) The Alternate Translation Bible
(ASV) American Standard Version (purchase ASV)
(AB) The Amplified Bible (editions for sale)
(ALT) Analytical-Literal Translation
(ASL) American Sign Language Translation
(AV) Authorized Version (same as KJV)
(Bar) The New Testament: A New Translation, by William Barclay
(BLB) The Better Life Bible
(BWE) Bible in WorldWide English
The Bible Gateway Translation Information (see BWE description)
(CCB) Christian Community Bible
(CE) The Common Edition: New Testament
(CJB) Complete Jewish Bible
(CV) Concordant Version
(CEV) Contemporary English Version
CEV online
(Dar) Darby
(DR) Douay-Rheims
(DRP) David Robert Palmer's translations of the gospels
(EMTV) English Majority Text Version
(ENT) Extreme New Testament (revision of Simple English Bible, below)
Forward, by Tommy Tenney
(ERV) Easy-to-Read Version
(ESV) English Standard Version
(FF) Ferrar Fenton Bible
(GLW) God's Living Word
(GNC) God's New Covenant: A New Testament Translation, by Heinz W. Cassirer
(GNT) Good News Translation [formerly, (GNB) Good News Bible, and (TEV) Today's English Version]
(GW) God's Word
(HCSB) Holman Christian Standard Bible (online, see Access Bibles section, below
article
(ICB) International Children's Bible (children's version of the NCV)
(ISB) International Standard Bible (formerly titled The Simple English Bible)
(ISV) The International Standard Version
ISV Naturalness and Comprehension Survey, by Phil Fields
(JBP) New Testament in Modern English, by J.B. Phillips
New Testament in Modern English, Revised, by J.B. Phillips
Student edition
(JNT) Jewish New Testament: A Translation of the New Testament That Expresses Its Jewishness (see Complete Jewish Bible)
(JPS) Jerusalem Publication Society: Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures, The New JPS Translation According to the Traditional Hebrew Text

(KJV) King James Version and recent revisions
KJV
Translators to the Reader
(DKJB) Defined King James Bible
(KJII) King James Version II (renamed to Literal Translation of the Holy Bible)
(KJ21) King James for the 21st Century
(KJ2000) King James 2000
(LITV) The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (formerly named King James II)
(MKJV) Modern King James Version
(NKJV) New King James Version
(RAV) Revised Authorised Version (British edition of the NKJV)
(RKJV) Revised King James New Testament
(TMB) The Third Millennium Bible
(UKJV) Updated King James Version
(LITV) The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (see under KJV and recent revisions)
(LB) Living Bible
(MAEV) Modern American English Vernacular
(MLB) Modern Language Bible: New Berkeley Version
(Mof) Bible: James Moffatt Translation
(NAB) New American Bible
(NAB) New American Bible
(NASB) New American Standard Bible
New Berkeley Version (see Modern Language Bible)
(NCV) New Century Version
(NEB) New English Bible
(NET) New English Translation
(NET) New Evangelical Translation
(NIrV) New Internation Reader's Version
(NIV) New International Version
(NJB) New Jerusalem Bible
(NKJV) New King James Version (see under KJV and recent revisions)
(NLV) New Life Version
(NLT) New Living Translation
The Living Bible Reborn
(NRSV) New Revised Standard Bible
(NWT) New World Translation (published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of the Jehovah's Witnesses)
(OBP) The Original Bible Project
(OSB) Orthodox Study Bible
(ONT) The Original New Testament: The First Definitive Translation of the New Testament in 2000 Years, by Hugh Schonfield
(PMB) Postmodern Bible - Amos
(Rec) Recovery Version
(REB) The Revised English Bible (revision of NEB)
(RSV) Revised Standard Version
(RV) Revised Version, 1885
(Sch) The Schocken Bible
(SEB) The Simple English Bible
(TM) The Message
(TMB) The Third Millennium Bible
(TEV) Today's English Version [see (GNT) Good News Translation]
(TNIV) Today's New International Version
(Tyn) Tyndale
(Wey) Weymouth
(WEB) World English Bible
(Wms) The New Testament in the Language of the People, by Charles B. Williams
(WNT) Wesley's New Testament
(Wuest) The New Testament (An Expanded Translation) purchase
(Wyc) Wycliffe
Yes Word (update of Tyndale translation)
(YLT) Young's Literal Translation of the Bible


Now I ask you. Do you seriously think this is NOT confusing for the newbie? Would you have him trust his luck in picking "the right one for him"?
This is a serious question. You all know my stand. I put this forth for you all to ponder. I have read where some of you agree with me at least on this point; i.e. there are WAY too many choices for the newbies. It can only lead to utter confusion, if not, then at least it would lead many newbies to just give up altogether.

(Discuss among yourselves. I'll sit quiet.)

In His service;
Jim

 

[preachinjesus]

Well this is a prime example of why we need an informed clergy to aid our "newbie" Christians in procuring a Bible which will be helpful for them. We just can't expect new Christians to be able to choose a translation since they are largely uninformed already.

Simply turning a new Christian loose in a Christian bookstore for a Bible is a lot like giving a child free reign in a grocery store...sure there is helpful stuff there but we all know they probably won't pick what's best for them since they don't know what's best for them.

I prefer starting new Christians off with an NIV or something with more approachable wording before moving them into something like the ESV, NASB, HCSB, or RSV. Of course in my starting them off I also must be ready to give counsel and prepare times where we can meet to discuss the Bible in their hands.

This is another reason why every church should have a study time devoted to understanding how different translations work. Even some of the one's listed above aren't awfully good (nor accepted) translations.

 

[Dogsbody]

An infamous preacher (name deleted before it gets deleted) said on the radio (after promoting his preference) find one that best suits you! Yeh! I'm the higher critic!
Ahaw! No "worm" Bible!

 

[GeneMBridges]

Do you seriously think this is NOT confusing for the newbie.

Depends on the salesperson. There over half a dozen Christian bookstores within a half hour radius of my home. Not one of them has a staff member that would present a yardarm length of Bible translations. They are all also knowledgeable about them to answer questions.

Would you have him trust his luck in picking "the right one for him"?

What's luck got to do with it? I happen to know for a fact that my NASB revised edition Bible came to me by the providential hand of God. In fact, my Bible teaches me that nothing happens by chance in the universe, even Bible selections.

Give this person some credit. Do you seriously think that a person that feels overwhelmed will not ask the staff questions or go home and do a little research or ask another Christian?

As for the list itself... If the person is shopping on the internet, they can look up information about each one. Anybody that can't use an internet search engine probably shouldn't be on the internet anyway. Also, I've been a LOT of Christian bookstores in my lifetime, including the "flagship" Lifeway store in Nashville, and not even they have all those versions in stock. I think the only place you might find them is at the big Bible Superstore on I - 85 South as you head into GA from SC.

 

[Dogsbody]

Oops! "Worm" Bible found! KJB on my desk! Psalm 22:6 "But I am a worm, and no man..."
Yea!
Never mind.

 

[GeneMBridges]

Originally posted by preachinjesus:


This is another reason why every church should have a study time devoted to understanding how different translations work. Even some of the one's listed above aren't awfully good (nor accepted) translations.

I agree wholeheartedly. The pastor of the church I'm at now has recently completed a book that is basically a theology for the "everyman" Christian. I understand that it discusses doctrinal issues and some the issues surrounding translations too so that our members will be more informed about them as they prayerfully choose which one/s to use.

 

[HankD]

Now I ask you. Do you seriously think this is NOT confusing for the newbie? Would you have him trust his luck in picking "the right one for him"?
This is a serious question. You all know my stand. I put this forth for you all to ponder. I have read where some of you agree with me at least on this point; i.e. there are WAY too many choices for the newbies. It can only lead to utter confusion, if not, then at least it would lead many newbies to just give up altogether.

(Discuss among yourselves. I'll sit quiet.)

I would rather address you directly.

We have been down this road before, alas, we must travel it again.

This is nothing new in 1611 there were upwards of 120 English translations.

Apparently the King James translators disagree with you who said

that variety of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures:

In their day owning an English Bible was financially equivalent to owning an autombile today.

We are particularly blessed today where Bibles can be purchased (and compared) for less than $10.00 each.

Would you have him trust his luck in picking

Another fact that you have not addressed is the leading of the Holy Spirit in the life of the true believer and not “luck”.

HankD

 

[Ziggy]

avjim: "Pretend you are a brand new believer who just got saved this past sunday. You were saved out of a very anti-religious home. You have no clue. Got the picture? OK. Then walk into a Christian bookstore and say, "I need a Bible."

Real-life testimony: that was me decades ago. Except my problem was not that of finding a Bible translation that I could read or accept (I started with the TEV/Good News for Modern Man and quickly moved to the RSV).

My problem at that time was in trying to sort out all the *other* books that were claimed by various groups as "revealed Scripture" (e.g., Book of Mormon, Science and Health, etc.), since at that time I had no background by which to reject or refute such (I obviously finally did so, which is why I'm a Baptist today).

But the issue of competing Bible translations was *never* an issue to me, and the variety of translations available -- rather than presenting a "problem" -- instead offered me a *choice* that turned out to best serve my needs as a new and growing believer.

 

[pastorjeff]

Most book store owners don't carry that many translations, are much more helpful, and have charts that describe the differences posted by their Bibles. Not only should the Church help in this process, it would be best for the church to give the new believer a copy of the Bible. If not, I believe most new Christians would pick the one they have been hearing on Sun. morning or the one used by the one who led them to the Lord.

 

[av1611jim]

Ok Hank. Here we go. I really did not want to go down this road. I supplied the list and hypothetical as illustration only. That being said, please bear that in mind during this conversation.

You said, ..."there were upwards of 120 English translations."
-----------------------------------------------
That got my curiosity up. Document this please. I did not know there were "upwards of 120 English translations" in 1611. Prove it.

Next, pray tell, where ARE they? Show me.
-----------------------------------------------
You said, "In their day owning an English Bible was financially equivalent to owning an autombile today."
-----------------------------------------------
This means nothing Hank. Bibles were not that prolific. There was no middle class who could afford them. And IF there were 120 translations available, then WHY OH WHY did the Bishop's Bible get called the CHAINED Bible? Because they did not want people taking them. Well if they were fearful of folks taking them, then obviously there WERE NOT THAT MANY OF THEM!
And NO it was not equivalent to "owning an automobile", because MOST people today do have a car. But MOST people then did NOT have a Bible.
I think this is called a what? Apples and oranges...whatdoyacallit?
-------------------------------------------------
I posted about 90 different "versions", "translations" and "paraphrases". Holy Spirit or not, are you telling me you did NOT get some kind of (Pastor, mentor,parent, brother/sister, deacon, etc.)guidance when you were first saved and went to buy a Bible? I did.
-------------------------------------------------
I used "luck" to illustrate the blindness necessary to believe that God somehow had a hand in this glut of "book of the month" "multiple choice" Bibles on the market.
Forget the KJVO issue for now. What I am addressing is NOT KJVO. It is the insanity that someone, who claims to be sane, can equate the mindset of the KJV translators comments, (which you quoted, and I have a copy of in my Bible) to today's money grubbing justification for what averages out to be a new Bible version or package EVERY 6 months for the last 120 years!
THAT my friend is this issue I am addressing.

In His service;
Jim

(Amen brother Jim, Preach it!)

 

[HankD]

That got my curiosity up. Document this please. I did not know there were "upwards of 120 English translations" in 1611. Prove it.

I can't right now and I'm not going to take the time to find it again. I read it, I reported it in the past. I don't remember where I read it. If you don't believe me that's OK because I know that I am not lying to you. If I happen upon it I will let you know

I posted about 90 different "versions", "translations" and "paraphrases". Holy Spirit or not, are you telling me you did NOT get some kind of (Pastor, mentor,parent, brother/sister, deacon, etc.)guidance when you were first saved and went to buy a Bible? I did.

Yes, as a matter of fact I did. A Catholic priest instructed me that the Douay-Rheims Bible was one of the Bibles the Church allowed me to read and that I should purchase that one.

Two years later the Spirit of God lead me out of the Church of Rome.

...THAT my friend is this issue I am addressing.

Personally, the Spirit of God had no problem showing me which translations were good, which were not so good. I have several good ones and I have found the words of the KJV translators correct in this case that they are indeed very helpful in finding the "sense" of the Scriptures.

Even the "meanest" of them have something of value about them.

And NO it was not equivalent to "owning an automobile", because MOST people today do have a car. But MOST people then did NOT have a Bible.
I think this is called a what? Apples and oranges...whatdoyacallit?

Yes it was. Why didn't everyone own a Bible then?
For the simple reason that there wern't the credit institutions as there are today, plus if you did find a bank and were allowed to borrow and missed a payment you could go to jail or even loose your life.

Why are you in SHOUTING mode?

HankD

 

[HankD]

RE: 120 English Bible translations in 1611.

Here is a place to start Jim...

Skip down through the pitch to Where We Got our English Bible.

http://www.isv.org/musings/history.htm

It's not exhaustive (for instance I did not see The Alcuin bible listed http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0005876.html ) and I'm not sure it was Anglo-Saxon, though he spoke English but you will probably see names of old English/Anglo Saxon Bibles and translators you didn't know existed.

HankD

[ December 15, 2004, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I am missing the purpose of this thread Jim and for that I apologise.

How many translations is too many?

Is the point that there should only be one translation in each language?

 

[av1611jim]

C4K;
Not so sure you could put a # on it, in this case. Certainly there must be a "ridiculous" point though. (seems to me anyhow)
As I said in my reply to Hank, This list and hypothetical were given to illustrate what I see as a problem. Perhaps it is magnified because of the free enterprise system. It still seems to be a problem.
Consider for a moment;
When originally given; God's words (for the most part) were in one form. OT in Heb; NT in Grk. There wasn't much "marketing" of it. Consequently it appears there was not this plethora of sources to find Scripture, per location. (rambling here
)
Anyway, what I am getting at is this. With just the 90 that I listed, do you fellers think it wise to offer unto the "newbies" such a list of choices and say "pick one, I like this one but you need one you like."? What does this say to him? I think it says, it makes no difference which you choose as long as it is a good one.
Then that leads one to ask, who says which are good and which are not?
Already in this thread we have had differing opinions and choices given. And we are supposedly "educated" in Scripture. If we Scholars have trouble coming to a concensus as to which are "best" and which are "not so good", it seems to me to present an unneccesary burden on the "newbie". I remember my first weeks being saved. I was more interested in telling my friends about Jesus than picking the "best Bible for me". Then again, that was many years ago and the choices have exponentially grown since then.
There ought to be a stopping point, I guess is what I am getting at. BTW, I am not discounting the Holy Spirit's guiding in this case. But it seems like somebody has. Else why would we say, "This one is poorly done and this one is well done".? I don't know about you fellers, but I will not say the Holy Spirit guided some translation to be poorly done. Remember the song says, "Thou doest all things well".
So, back atcha my friend. Should there be a stopping point? Shouldn't we at least come to a place where it could be said, "These four and no more"?
I think there are way too many. Couldn't really say just how many is enough, but this has definitely gotten out of hand. Perhaps, it is a manifestation of the flesh trying to do the work of God. This guys says I can do it better, and that guys says no, I can do it better.
Perhaps, since we agree there are basically two "styles" of MSS, Alexandrian and Bysantine, and there is basically two "styles of translation, Formal and Dynamic, then perhaps there ought to be just two of each style of translation coupled with each style of MSS.
I don't really have a definitive answer. Of course, you know what I think we all should use, but that is not the point of this thread.
Is that any clearer?
In HIs service;
Jim

 

[robycop3]

Pretend you're a new Christian, led to Christ from a non-religious household by a door-to-door witness who's working on his own, not out of any local church...and you want a Bible. So, you go to the local religious book store, and you tell a clerk who happens to be KJVO, "I wanna buy a Bible" & she immediately hands you a KJV. You leaf through it and say, "M'am, I haven't seen English like this since I studied the works of Shakespeare in HS Eng Lit class. Do you have any Bibles in modern English?" "Yes Sir, we do, but they aren't REALLY good Bibles. Not one of'em matches the King James. This King James is the ONLY completely valid, perfect, & inerrant English-language version there is. And it's the King James BIBLE, not the KJ VERSION. How do I know this? Here, lemme show you this book by Dr. Sam Gipp, and this other one by Gail Riplinger..."

Blind leading the blindfolded...

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

I think the point here is that a new believer needs help, he or she should not be left alone.

A friend of mine works at a Christian book store in South Carolina. Their best selling Bible is the $11.99 King James in Black with the words HOLY BIBLE on the cover. Seriously, he has had dozens of customers come in and ask for this bible specifically. When he tried to point out that all of the King James Bibles he had contained the same scripture the response is always, "But I want the HOLY Bible, it needs to be the HOLY Bible." If it does not say HOLY on the cover they don't want it. And these were not new believers.

 

[Scott J]

That's a very sad statement... but not altogether surprising. I know a few KJVO's that don't read the KJV but will fight you over any versions that make "changes".

 

[HankD]

If it does not say HOLY on the cover they don't want it. And these were not new believers.

My NKJV has HOLY BIBLE on the cover.

I will agree with Jim to the extent that there are flagrant abuses and most likely the element of greed in the realm of Bible publications. That shouldn't surprise anyone.

"bible" publication also extends to the massive amounts of money in the fleecing of the sheep with the sale of printed items about the Bible, related to new and bizarre doctrines such as the idea that God has a "secratary".

HankD

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by robycop3:
Pretend you're a new Christian, led to Christ from a non-religious household by a door-to-door witness who's working on his own, not out of any local church...and you want a Bible. So, you go to the local religious book store, and you tell a clerk who happens to be KJVO, "I wanna buy a Bible" & she immediately hands you a KJV. You leaf through it and say, "M'am, I haven't seen English like this since I studied the works of Shakespeare in HS Eng Lit class. Do you have any Bibles in modern English?" "Yes Sir, we do, but they aren't REALLY good Bibles. Not one of'em matches the King James. This King James is the ONLY completely valid, perfect, & inerrant English-language version there is. And it's the King James BIBLE, not the KJ VERSION. How do I know this? Here, lemme show you this book by Dr. Sam Gipp, and this other one by Gail Riplinger..."

Blind leading the blindfolded...

--------------------------------------------------

Not likely to happen Brother. The KJVO you describe would not be caught DEAD even working in a place that had more than the KJV for sale.

Don't you think?
That scenario is not germaine to the topic anyhow.
No gold star for you. Nice try though!

In His service;
Jim

 

[av1611jim]

Please guys. Let's not deflect this to a KJV vs MV discussion. That dog won't hunt. That horse has been beat to death. That car is out of gas.

The discussion is illustrated in the OP.
There is obviously a problem. We have had some good suggestions on how to help defray the possible mess it creates. What else could we (who love the Scriptures) do to "stem the tide" of the "book of the month" mentality that created this? Or...are we just stuck with it because of the free enterprise system we are faced with in this day?
In His service;
Jim