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Featured Must One Hold To A-Mil To Evedn be a Real Christian then?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Jun 13, 2020.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    seems that some see one must have the 'right" view eschatology to even be saved!
     
  2. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I was a Dispensationalist and fully saved. But did not know anything about Eschatology per se. I studied all of the available choices today for years it seems. But when I studied the 4 gospels about the Kingdom, Jesus's spiritual kingdom cinched it for me. All the Millennial theories went out of the window at that time.
     
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  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Can one deny A mil view and be saved?
     
  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I think once God opens their eyes they can't thank him enough. Think of the bondage and the twisted minds that happen as a result of theologies based on lies.
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Scripture is clear on this one.

    "Repent, believe, and accept an Amil position and you will be saved", "one must be born again and accept an Amil view", " I, along with the Amil position, am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me, and of course the Amil position".
     
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  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Jon knows he is completely wrong on this one, that sneaky sly rascal:Sneaky... Ones eschatology viewpoint has nothing to do with ones eternal standing in Christ... Oh brother!... And it didn't surprise me in the least who started the OP... Brother Glen:rolleyes:
     
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  7. timtofly

    timtofly Active Member

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    Well it is certain that those in hell will not have a milennial reign with Christ. Perhaps there is truth in the fact that unsaved people get their amil. Salvation is not a belief system. It is a choice between God’s literal plan of Salvation or our own literal works of the flesh.
     
  8. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Why in the world do you keep posting straw men and wild geese? Who says only Amill will be saved? Who believes that? Who believes only premillenial dispensationalists will be saved?
     
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  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I believe that one must have a 'right' view of eschatology to not be a novice regarding Teaching of The End Times.

    Your statement does an unusual thing, which is that it does not mention the letters, 'mil'.

    The title does, but there is no need for it.

    Any mention of the word, 'mil' is the sure sign of a novice regarding The End Times.

    God doesn't Talk about 'mil', or have any Teaching, concept, or acknowledgment of such an idea.

    ...

    Although I see a new form of 'salvation' each time I come on the board, here, a misunderstanding of someone's position on Eschatology probably doesn't need to extend to an accusation that they have invented a new form of 'salvation'.

    What is your beef that you think some people are saying about having to have a view of The End Times to be saved?
     
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Hey, everybody else just throws out all of Jesus' Kingdom Preaching!!

    You sound like you're saying Jesus could Come Back and that that is The End of The World, like the Bible Says (maybe you're not saying that);

    "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." I Corinthians 15:24
     
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  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Deny a 'non' mil'.

    How about we just read the Bible and skip the fictitious 'mil' backwardness?
     
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    He picked it up from the discussion on another post, I believe, and it will amount to a misunderstanding.

    There will be some 'theory' that is violated and 'looks' like it can be made into a formula where only certain people obtain salvation.

    We asked him to state it.

    Straw man, as you said.
     
  13. timtofly

    timtofly Active Member

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    Still not the end of the world, just a few ages. The church age, and the 6000 year age of Adam's punishment on his descendants. The end is still 1000 years away. We have lost sight on what it is to develop a kingdom of regenerated souls. It is not a moral government to protect our rights! Or wrongs, which tends to be the normal end of church married to Satan's state.
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I was raised a dispensationalist. I was saved as a dispensationalist. Then, as I read the Bible, I saw that the concept of the rapture is not actually taught in scripture. The "rapture" is extrapolated from a few verses if you create a pretext, but it is not actually taught by the Apostles.
    So, as I have read and studied, I have moved to an ammillenial position.
    Did my position as a child of God change because of my shift? Not at all. God saved me in my dispensationalism and he still keeps me as an ammillenialist. Our view on Christ's return does not affect our salvation. It does, however, affect our actions on earth. How I view missions has changed immensely. I am much more missional and much more confident of God's work in missions than I was as a dispensationalist. The primary reason for this is that I also was a synergist and I now am a monergists. My understanding of God's Sovereignty has changed.
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Where do you put any of your reply comments into this verse?

    "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." I Corinthians 15:24
     
  16. timtofly

    timtofly Active Member

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    Revelation 10:6-7

    6 and swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will be no more delay;
    7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

    Revelation 11:15
    "The seventh angel sounded his shofar; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,

    “The kingdom of the world
    has become the Kingdom
    of our Lord and his Messiah,
    and he will rule forever and ever!”"

    The church has lost sight of both the spiritual and physical kingdom. Yes some are still evangelizing. The point of the next 1000 years, is that God is going to show us what God’s kingdom consists of. Forever is a promise that even if there are dozens of realities ahead, this group of current humans will remain in each reality.

    After 2000 years of the church attempting to spread the gospel, it is also the end of the whole mystery of God. That is the 6000 year end of sin and knowing evil itself. The punishment of work and labor by the sweat of the brow is over. The power of death will also be brought to an end. The final harvest of the kingdoms preached by Jesus the first time around will all happen in the next few years. The seals end the church age and spiritual kingdom. The Trumpets are for the living house of Jacob, and the Messiah will be revealed. The Thunderings are for the nations themselves and the end of all rule. Then the 7th Trumpet will blast for 8 days of the Second Coming week. It is the end of all ages and kingdoms. Then God will have His own 1000 year kingdom with Jesus Christ in control. That covers the first 12 chapters of Revelation. The 13th chapter is an unnecessary interruption. Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 12:11 tell of this end time event, not fully understanding the nature of the church and her responsibilities.

    God Wills that a full harvest, may happen, but both Daniel and John had to seal up events. The church can still make a difference. The door is still open. However when the door shuts, both Daniel and John seem to indicate, what ever course was set by the church now, will not change after God’s thief in the night event. If the harvest was completed and few left, then Revelation 13 does not have to happen, because all humanity already made the choice. Satan will be defeated by the church. If the church fails, then Satan will get his 3.5 years. There will be one last harvest at the battle of Armageddon. Then all kingdoms and power will be complete, it will just take 3.5 more years before the 1000 year reign can start.

    Not sure why some confuse both the spiritual and physical kingdom becoming as one reality allowing God to finish what God started 7000 years ago? No one figured out that God let this creation work perfectly for 1000 years. Satan has convinced all that we live in a 14 billion year old universe. Those who follow evolution seem to think things will just get better, and there is no Millennial reign of Christ. It was spiritual and already happening. No, a thousand times no, well 2 thousand times no. The spiritual and physical are both equal parts of reality, and both are tangible, once we become sons of God again. For those both alive in Christ and those dead in Christ the rapture event of Paul, will happen in the 5th and 6th seal. Then the church will return as a whole, both OT and all NT saints, even those living right now, will return to the state Adam had before he disobeyed God. We are back to being sons of God, and will have to watch as God harvests, the rest of those living on earth. This is not at the end of a non-existent spiritual 1000 years. We as sons of God will serve in God's temple for 1000 years, and then the end of this reality will change in an instant into the New Heavens and earth, and the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem will continue to be our residence as sons of God.
     
    #16 timtofly, Jun 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    There are a lot of '000's in your reply that I don't see in The Bible.

    ALL of the
    7 VISIONS in the Book of Revelation Contain Announcements
    and Introductions, and later, full descriptions
    of The Final Judgment, as you mentioned, from 10 & 11.

    Just as revealed in "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." I Corinthians 15:24

    .....and all these 66 scriptures, just from Matthew through III John:

    9.0.0 > NT Intro iv: SIXTY-SIX NEW TESTAMENT Verses Teach The SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST & THE END of TIME.


    The Two HALVES of REVELATION
    are Distinct in The Kind of Detail, they Reveal.
    ...
    In the First Half of Revelation
    Chapters 1-11 cover
    The First Three
    VISIONS, in 3 of the 7 Sections
    ( The first section with
    "Christ in the Midst
    of the Lamp-stands"
    in REVELATION 1:1 – 3:22
    &
    The second section concerning
    "The Vision of Heaven
    and the Seals"
    in REVELATION 4:1 – 7:17
    &
    The third section concerning
    "The Seven Trumpets"
    in REVELATION 8:1 – 11:19 )
    ...
    ALL three of these
    first 3 of 7
    VISIONS Contain Announcements
    and Introductions to The Final Judgment.

    Notice how ALL three of these
    first 3 of 7
    VISIONS Contain Announcements
    and Introductions to The Final Judgment.
    ...
    In the First VISION of

    "Jesus Christ in the Midst
    of the Lamp-stands"

    in REVELATION 1:1 – 3:22,
    we have only a mere mention
    of Coming Judgment

    without any description,
    in REVELATION 1:7;
    ...

    “Behold, He comes with clouds;
    and every eye will see Him
    and
    they also which Pierced Him:
    and all kindreds of the Earth
    will wail because of Him.
    Even so, Amen.”



    In the Second VISION,
    concerning
    "The Vision of Heaven
    and the Seals"

    in REVELATION 4:1 - 7:17,

    Final Judgment
    is not merely mentioned,
    it is now Definitely Introduced,

    and we see
    The HORROR of
    The FINAL JUDGMENT,

    but again there is no description,
    in these verses,
    in REVELATION 6:12-17;


    “And I beheld,
    when He
    had Opened The Sixth Seal
    and lo, there was A Great Earthquake;
    and The Sun became black
    as sackcloth of hair
    and
    The Moon became as blood;

    “And the Stars of Heaven
    fell to The Earth,
    even as a fig tree
    casts her untimely figs,
    when she is shaken
    of a mighty wind,

    “And the Heaven
    Departed as a scroll
    when it is rolled together;
    and
    every mountain and island
    were Moved out of their places.

    “And
    the kings of the Earth
    and
    the great men
    and the rich men
    and the chief captains
    and the mighty men
    and every bondman
    and every free man,
    hid themselves in the dens
    and
    in the rocks of the mountains;

    “And said
    to the mountains and rocks,
    Fall on us and
    hide us from The Face of Him
    that Sits on The Throne
    and
    from The Wrath of The Lamb;

    “Because,
    The Great Day of His Wrath
    has Come;
    and
    who will be able to stand ?”




    con't
     
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    And, we also get a brief Introduction
    to the Eternal State of the Saints,
    after The Final Judgment of the lost
    in this Second Section of Seven
    in REVELATION 7:9-17;
    ...
    "After this I looked,
    and, lo, a great multitude,
    which no man could number,
    of all nations, and kindreds,
    and people, and tongues,
    stood before the Throne,
    and
    before the Lamb,
    clothed with white robes,
    and palms in their hands;
    ...
    10 "And cried with a loud voice,
    saying,
    Salvation to our God
    Who Sits on the Throne,
    and
    to the Lamb.
    ...
    11 "And all the angels
    stood around the Throne,
    and
    around the elders
    and the four beasts,
    and fell before the throne
    on their faces,
    and
    worshiped God,
    ...
    12 "Saying, Amen:
    Blessing, and Glory,
    and Wisdom, and Thanksgiving,
    and Honour, and Power,
    and Might,
    be to our God
    Forever and Ever. Amen."
    ...
    13 "And one of the elders answered,
    saying to me,
    What are these
    which are arrayed in white robes?
    and from where did they come?
    ...
    14 "And I said to him,
    Sir, you know.
    And he said to me,
    These are they which came out
    of Great Tribulation,
    and have Washed their robes,
    and
    Made them White
    in the Blood of the Lamb.
    ...
    15 "Therefore they are
    before the Throne of God,
    and Serve Him Day and Night
    in His Temple:
    ...
    "and He that Sits on the Throne
    Will Live Among them.
    ...
    16 "They Will Hunger No More,
    neither Thirst Any More;
    neither Will the Sun light on them,
    nor any heat.
    ...
    17 "Because, the Lamb
    which is in
    The Midst of the Throne
    Will Feed them,
    and Will Lead them
    to Living Fountains of Waters:
    ...
    "and God Will
    Wipe Away All Tears
    from their eyes."


    In the Third VISION, or
    The Third Section of Seven,
    concerning
    "The Seven Trumpets"
    in REVELATION 8:1 – 11:19,

    Final Judgment is referred to
    in a rather General Way,

    as we see,
    in REVELATION 11:15-19;

    "And the Seventh Angel Sounded;
    and
    there were Great Voices in Heaven,
    saying,
    The kingdoms of this World
    are become the Kingdoms of our Lord,
    and of His Christ;
    and
    He Will Reign Forever and Ever.
    ...
    16 "And the four and twenty elders,
    which sat before God on their seats,
    fell upon their faces,
    and worshiped God,
    ...
    17 "Saying, We give You thanks,
    O Lord God Almighty,
    Who Is, and Was, and Is to Come;
    ...
    "because
    You have Taken to You
    Your Great Power,
    and hast Reigned.
    ...
    18 "And the nations were angry,
    and Your Wrath is Come,
    and
    The Time of the Dead,
    that they should be Judged,
    and
    that You should Give Reward
    to Your Servants the Prophets,
    and
    to the Saints,
    and
    them that Fear Your Name,
    small and great;
    ...
    "and should Destroy them
    which destroy the Earth.
    ...
    19 And the Temple of God
    was Opened in Heaven,
    and
    there was seen in His Temple
    the Ark of His Testament:
    and
    there were lightnings,
    and voices,
    and thunderings,
    and an earthquake,
    and great hail."
    ...

    These Announcements of Judgment
    that are
    Made by GOD
    in the First Half
    of the Book of REVELATION,

    ( in the First Three Sections,
    in Chapters 1 through 11 )

    are then further developed
    in CLEARER DETAIL,
    in Second Half
    of the Book of REVELATION,

    ( in the Forth VISION
    through the Seventh VISION,
    in Chapters 12 through 22. )

    WordPress.com

    The Fourth Section

    in the Book of Revelation
    concerns
    "The Persecuting Dragon"
    in Revelation 12:1 - 14:20.

    The Fourth Section in Revelation 12:1-14:20; “The Persecuting Dragon”, the Beast, the False Prophet and the Whore, Babylon WAR UNTIL THE EARTH IS REAPED.

    ( 9.5 ) Section 5: REVELATION 15:1 – 16:21 / “The SEVEN BOWLS” The Fifth of Seven Sections in THE REVELATION 15:1 – 16:21.


    ( 9.6 ) Section 6: REVELATION 17:1 – 19:21 / “The FALL of BABYLON” The Sixth of Seven Sections in THE REVELATION 17:1 – 19:21.



    ( 9.7 ) Section 7: REVELATION 20:1 – 22:21 / “The GREAT CONSUMMATION” The Seventh of Seven Sections in THE REVELATION 20:1 – 22:21.
     
  19. timtofly

    timtofly Active Member

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    I do not disagree. The 6th seal has God on the throne here on earth. The Lamb by God’s side here on earth. Revelation 1:7 declares it will happen as coming through the clouds. This sets up the week of the Second Coming. But the Second Coming is not quite yet. The 6th seal would be the event of Jesus' baptism where John the Baptist witnessed the Trinity. It was the start of the earthly ministry, not the Cross. The week at the end of Jesus' earthly ministry is the Second Coming. This time all will see. All will know what all those 000s are. That some could see them now?

    The 6th seal is not a baptism of water. It is the baptism of fire. It is judgment and harvest time. All human works will be burned up. All of God’s work will remain. Now is the time to choose God’s work and will be done. Because those decisions will last; not earthly goals and desires.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I moved from pre trib rapture to historical premil, what caused you to go to A Mil then, was it seeing the Messianic Age fully in a spiritual sense?
     
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