I would have to disagree with you. I don't think the Old Covenant has been done away with in regards to Israel between God and Israel himself.
Leviticus 26:43-46 says this
43For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees. 44Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.” ’
46These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the Lord established at Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses.
God has not ceased with his People, he has made an everlasting covenant that has not been superceeded.
Genesis 17:19 says - Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
Psalm 105:5-11 says -
5Remember the wonders he has done,
his miracles, and the judgments he pronounced,
6you his servants, the descendants of Abraham,
his chosen ones, the children of Jacob.
7He is the Lord our God;
his judgments are in all the earth.
8He remembers his covenant for ever,
the promise he made, for a thousand generations,
9the covenant he made with Abraham,
the oath he swore to Isaac.
10He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
11‘To you I will give the land of Canaan
as the portion you will inherit.’
Romans 11 confirms it, God is still for his people
11Again I ask: did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, ‘Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.’ 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
‘The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.’
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34‘Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counsellor?’
35‘Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?’
36For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory for ever! Amen.
Finally we can see in Zechariah 14 that if we put the church in the place of Israel it doesn't make sense. Even Luther said he couldn't make head or tail of it. Why because he was looking at it wrongly. God has his heart on his people regardless of their rejection. Why because God is faithful. I would add the entirety of Zechariah but it is too much for the thread. I've had to cut my references due to word count. Apologies.
My Theology (6/24h Day Creation, Pre-Trib Pre-Mill, Provisionist, Inerrant Word of God believer)
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jem Simmo, May 10, 2020.
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God is not even done with His covenant to Noah and the Nations. The 3.5 year tribulation is the judgment on the church, the house of Jacob, and the Nations. The Nations go through all 3 sets of Judgments. The house of Jacob goes through the first 2 sets. The church only goes through the Seals. The church and OT Saints, it does not matter if they are Jew or Gentile, will never be removed from the Lamb's book of life. It is spiritually and physically impossible. The body of Christ is taken out even before the 7th Seal is opened. When the 7th Seal is opened the book will be opened, and names will be removed. Names will never, ever be added. During the Seals and Thunderings will be when humans left will chose to remain in the book or not. The 144K are sealed, and cannot be unsealed. They will be whiteness as only the future can describe. We are not told how or what they do. At some point the harvest of the nations and modern Jews will be reaped. Then God will deal directly with any one left alive on earth. Of course the Vatican will want to have a say. They just missed the first and second harvest. Well yes, the woman of Babylon/Rome is still around.
The Second Coming will happen in April of 2023. Christ will make a deal with Satan that lets him have 3.5 years starting on Wednesday of that week. The last 3.5 days of the week will be postponed until the end of that time. There will only be 2 witnesses. The choice will be the mark, and name removed from the Lamb's book of life, or chopping the head off. Those whose heads are chopped off remain in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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17 For the time has come for the judgment to begin. It begins with the household of God; and if it starts with us, what will the outcome be for those who are disobeying God’s Good News? —
18 “If the righteous is barely delivered,
where will the ungodly and sinful end up?”
19 So let those who are suffering according to God’s will entrust themselves to a faithful Creator by continuing to do what is good.
We can know the Second Coming. It is spelled out in Revelation and Daniel if any one cares to listen with their God given ears.
The Rapture is the unknown part. Only God knows when that happens. And only the day and hour is hidden. Does not even say month or year. Could one figure out the month after the 4th seal is opened? Who knows? I don't know when the seals will be opened. I can only witness when they have been opened. After the rapture all should know that Revelation is explaining every thing. Unless they keep believing the lies of Satan. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
In Peter's passage, the reference in the context is to suffering persecution as a Christian, not punishment as a Christian. So it is poor exegesis to apply it to the tribulation whatever one's belief on the duration of that time. Peter did not say, "Yeah, God is going to judge the church." He said, "Judgement begins at the house of God" (meaning the temple). 82 times in the OT it means the Temple, so that is what any believing or unbelieving Jew would think of when they read 2 Peter.
Luke 12:40, "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I taught Bible in Japan for decades. I now teach Bible and theology, including eschatology, in the US at the college and seminary level. I have translated the Greek NT into Japanese, including Revelation. I think we could have had a profitable discussion here. However, by your nastiness, you have chosen not to have me interact with you any more.
Good luck on the BB. I think you'll find that most of us won't put up with these kinds of attacks. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Folks, why is it that "pre-wrath" advocates can be so nasty? It's a mystery to me. They claim to be prepared for the 3 1/2 years, but then they don't treat other believers right? Tell you what, even assuming the pre-wrath position is correct (I do not), you're not going to last in tough times (like with a worldwide pandemic, for example) unless you walk with Jesus in the revival lifestyle. Only constant fullness of the Holy Spirit and closeness to Jesus can take us through the tough times.
As I've mentioned on here several times, I had emergency surgery on Christmas Eve last year, and then was in the hospital for 13 days. Through the surgery I developed blood clots in my lungs and diabetes. I had about four lines going in and coming out of my body--couldn't sleep at night for days--just lay in that bed without moving. I'll have follow-up surgery in June, God willing. Folks, the Lord Jesus Christ was incredibly near to me all through the experience. He kept me from fear and worry. This was the worst tribulation of my life, yet God was with me, incredibly close. I do not regret a split second of that experience.
If I am wrong, perchance, and we do go through part or all of the Tribulation Period, I know that God will be with me then. I'm fully prepared spiritually. -
It was a challenge to prove me wrong. Since I made no guesses about your character and knowledge, how was I even attempting an attack? If you choose not to defend your post, you are certainly free to walk away. I am not here to play games, guess if people have mountains of education backing them up, judging people, nor here to change one's beliefs. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
So now I'll put you on "ignore." -
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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You are the one who said it was a nasty attack. Are you withdrawing that statement? -
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In all seriousness, though, I do see a correlation between biblical six-day creationism and premillennialism. They are both straightforward literal approaches to biblical history and prophecy. Straying from this approach, I agree, is problematic. -
You'll notice in Revelation, the Church is not mentioned after chapter 3 when the tribulation is described in detail, until Christ returns with his saints. -
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Long listen, but worth the while.
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The rapture view, is the the Church is taken up to heaven to later return with Christ. That whole robe scene is in heaven. They are absent on the earth during the tribulation period. You really should look into this view. -
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