Do it again.
You said:
"But scripture, rather than the clever stories of men, says quite clearly things happen by "chance.""
Prove that statement. I see nowhere in the past where you have ever proven your assertion in scripture.
Show us where God is a God of chance.
No Bible Doctrine Called Sovereign Grace
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JD731, Nov 26, 2022.
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Exhaustive determinism is shown to be false doctrine time and again because scripture says things happen sometimes by chance. -
Grace is associated with mercy and it is a principle that is the highlight of the New Testament in the blood of Jesus Christ, which he shed to take away the sin of the world because of the love of God for sinners, which you deny, and people who holds your views have often verse mined in the Old Testament scriptures without context to prove such a misrepresentation of the true God.
You greatly err and you have no idea just how badly you err. -
Do you not realize that such a god is found in all the pagan religions of the world?
So, is God Sovereign? Yes, without a doubt.
Is God one who graciously chooses to save unworthy rebels? Yes, without a doubt.
Therefore you have Sovereign Grace. It is entirely biblical. To deny it is to deny the core of the gospel. -
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"But scripture, rather than the clever stories of men, says quite clearly things happen by "chance.""
What is the scripture that teaches " things happen by chance?
You have made the assertion. Surely you can show us your research in the Bible that shows events happening by chance.
I counter with the first words of Daniel 1.
*Daniel 1:1-2*
In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the vessels of the house of God. And he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his god.
Was it chance that Nebuchadnezzar defeated Judah and overthrew Jerusalem? -
God does not present himself as being sovereign in the issue of salvation as sovereignty in salvation is proposed by Calvinists. He said, and I quoted him saying, "you will not come to me that you might have life." He said the reason sinners would not believe is because they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. Obviously, sinners knows that salvation requires repentance. You would be so foolish to say they cannot come to him because they were not chosen. Jesus Christ is the God Man and he invites sinners to come to him and be saved. Anyone who has ever read the scriptures with any understanding would know this. God the Father, after a convincing proof that all men have sinned and are condemned by it says he will save anyone who will come to him through the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross, because he has raised him from the dead.
While God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and he has grace in the OT as well as the new, he did not deal with men under the principle of grace as his primary means during times before the church age, the age in which we are living now. He dealt with men under different principles. He dealt with Israel as a nation in the OT under the principle of the Mosaic Law and he dealt with gentiles under human government. Israel was the only theocracy that has ever been on the earth, and that nation rebelled against God. Gentiles were ruled under human government and separated into national entities. God holds those national rulers responsible of how they rule.
The law was an addendum to the Abrahamic covenant and was to condition Israel for their Messiah, Jesus Christ. When he came Israel would go from the works of the law to the faith of Christ. (Christ is the end of the law. Ro 10:4) One can see that clearly in Ga 3. Look.
Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the (Mosaic) covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after (after the Abrahamic Covenant), cannot disannul, (the Abrahamic Covenant) that it (the Mosaic covenant, the covenant of law) should make the promise (of salvation, the Spirit) of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added (as an addendum to the Abrahmic Covenant) because of transgressions, till the seed (see V 16) should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards (the law) be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (the law of Moses)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
The coming of Jesus Christ to die and rise from the dead changes the dynamics of God and now he can give salvation to all who will receive it because all men can believe. Believing with the heart the Lord Jesus for salvation is all that God requires for sinners to be saved because any man, and all men, can believe. This is the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Don't mess this up with false theology, please.
I encourage you to read and meditate on the whole Ga 3 chapter in an epistle written to gentile churches. -
Ecclesiastes 9:11
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Jesus Christ himself said the following:
Luke 10:31
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
God is sovereign but He is not a tyrant that controls all that man think and do which is how some calvinists portray Him.
Those guys are not wrong, God is sovereign in salvation as we can not save ourselves. God saves those that freely trust in Him but calvinists do not seem to understand this or perhaps it is that they know it but just do not want to accept it. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
But what you refuse to understand is that the bible says you are wrong. -
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Romans 3:9-18 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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