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Featured No Scripture Challenge

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    You have missed my point:

    The word “catholic” [Greek, “καθολικος”, Greek Tr. “Katholikos”] is not found in scripture [KJB], nor even directly in the koine Greek manuscripts, but is rather a derivation of two koine Greek words:

    [1] [G2596] “καθ” [from “κατα”, a 'preposition'], “kath”, meaning “through” and

    [2] [G3650] “ολης” [an 'adjective' [in this instance, though can be used as noun or adverb]], “holos”, meaning “whole, all, entire”.​

    Therefore, both, when combined together, meaning the “throughout all” [Acts 9:31 KJB], the whole, entire, or 'universal'. It is a later adaptation in the writings of Ignatius ca. AD 110, and also by Cyril of Jerusalem, Ireneaus speaking about Polycarp, and used from the 2nd Century onward by a certain class of persons calling themselves by this name, and is ultimately made more and more prominent, especially in the reign of the Emperor Constantine, in the years of the 4 Emperors [and even afterward], and the various political-religious factions all vying for clout for their self-perceived doctrines. I will recommend you read The Two Republics, by A. T. Jones [approximate 1,000 pages], excellent history, you may find it online for free in PDF, or I can send you a copy PDF by email if you desire. There are attempts [please note this word] by the apologists of “Catholicism” to 'find' this word “καθολικος” in the scripture [I cite the KJB, the KJB with Strong's notation, the Greek New Testament from Textus Receptus, and also the same with Strong's notation and Robinson's morphological analysis codes, for each verse, words highlighted]:

    [01]

    Acts 9:31 KJB - Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

    Act 9:31 KJB + - ThenG3767 (G3303) hadG2192 theG3588 churchesG1577 restG1515 throughoutG2596 allG3650 JudaeaG2449 andG2532 GalileeG1056 andG2532 Samaria,G4540 and were edified;G3618 andG2532 walkingG4198 in theG3588 fearG5401 of theG3588 Lord,G2962 andG2532 in theG3588 comfortG3874 of theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost,G4151 were multiplied.G4129

    Acts 9:31 GNT TR - αι μεν ουν εκκλησιαι καθ ολης της ιουδαιας και γαλιλαιας και σαμαρειας ειχον ειρηνην οικοδομουμεναι και πορευομεναι τω φοβω του κυριου και τη παρακλησει του αγιου πνευματος επληθυνοντο

    Act 9:31 GNT TR + - αιG3588 T-NPF μενG3303 PRT ουνG3767 CONJ εκκλησιαιG1577 N-NPF καθG2596 PREP οληςG3650 A-GSF τηςG3588 T-GSF ιουδαιαςG2449 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ γαλιλαιαςG1056 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ σαμαρειαςG4540 N-GSF ειχονG2192 V-IAI-3P ειρηνηνG1515 N-ASF οικοδομουμεναιG3618 V-PPP-NPF καιG2532 CONJ πορευομεναιG4198 V-PNP-NPF τωG3588 T-DSM φοβωG5401 N-DSM τουG3588 T-GSM κυριουG2962 N-GSM καιG2532 CONJ τηG3588 T-DSF παρακλησειG3874 N-DSF τουG3588 T-GSN αγιουG40 A-GSN πνευματοςG4151 N-GSN επληθυνοντοG4129 V-IPI-3P

    *This is the only known instance in the Greek TR texts, where these two words are side by side, yet are clearly two distinct words, not directly speaking of the “church” [“εκκλησιαι”, “ekklesiai”] itself as “καθολικος”, but rather references the locality adjectively [“throughout all”] in which the “church” had “rest” [from persecution].​

    [02]

    Romans 16:23 KJB - Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.

    Romans 16:23 KJB + - GaiusG1050 mineG3450 host,G3581 andG2532 of theG3588 wholeG3650 church,G1577 salutethG782 you.G5209 ErastusG2037 theG3588 chamberlainG3623 of theG3588 cityG4172 salutethG782 you,G5209 andG2532 QuartusG2890 a brother.G80

    Romans 16:23 GNT TR - ασπαζεται υμας γαιος ο ξενος μου και της εκκλησιας ολης ασπαζεται υμας εραστος ο οικονομος της πολεως και κουαρτος ο αδελφος

    Romans 16:23 GNT TR + - ασπαζεταιG782 V-PNI-3S υμαςG4771 P-2AP γαιοςG1050 N-NSM οG3588 T-NSM ξενοςG3581 A-NSM μουG1473 P-1GS καιG2532 CONJ τηςG3588 T-GSF εκκλησιαςG1577 N-GSF οληςG3650 A-GSF ασπαζεταιG782 V-PNI-3S υμαςG4771 P-2AP εραστοςG2037 N-NSM οG3588 T-NSM οικονομοςG3623 N-NSM τηςG3588 T-GSF πολεωςG4172 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ κουαρτοςG2890 N-NSM οG3588 T-NSM αδελφοςG80 N-NSM​

    *In this instance, the koine Greek word [G2596] “καθ”, is not used at all in combination “ολης”. The word “ολης” is simply being used [as in many other places, 112 KJB [G3650]] as an adjective [“A-GSF”, Adjective – Genative, Singular, Feminine], to describe the amount [of persons thereof, locally] of the church who is [are] doing the greeting [“Tertius”, vs 22], with Paul and Gaius [Paul's “host”]. It is just simply including everyone in the church in the greeting, even after having listed a bunch of names to be greeted [vss. 1-16]. It does not designate the church as “καθολικος”.

    [03]

    1 Corinthians 14:23 KJB - If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

    1 Corinthians 14:23 KJB + - IfG1437 thereforeG3767 theG3588 wholeG3650 churchG1577 be come togetherG4905 intoG1909 one place,G846 andG2532 allG3956 speakG2980 with tongues,G1100 andG1161 there come inG1525 those that are unlearned,G2399 orG2228 unbelievers,G571 will they notG3756 sayG2046 thatG3754 ye are mad?G3105

    1 Corinthians 14:23 GNT TR - εαν ουν συνελθη η εκκλησια ολη επι το αυτο και παντες γλωσσαις λαλωσιν εισελθωσιν δε ιδιωται η απιστοι ουκ ερουσιν οτι μαινεσθε

    1 Corinthians 14:23 GN TR + - εανG1437 COND ουνG3767 CONJ συνελθηG4905 V-2AAS-3S ηG3588 T-NSF εκκλησιαG1577 N-NSF οληG3650 A-NSF επιG1909 PREP τοG3588 T-ASN αυτοG846 P-ASN καιG2532 CONJ παντεςG3956 A-NPM γλωσσαιςG1100 N-DPF λαλωσινG2980 V-PAS-3P εισελθωσινG1525 V-2AAS-3P δεG1161 CONJ ιδιωταιG2399 N-NPM ηG2228 PRT απιστοιG571 A-NPM ουκG3756 PRT-N ερουσινG2046 V-FAI-3P οτιG3754 CONJ μαινεσθεG3105 V-PNI-2P

    *In this instance, the koine Greek word [G2596] “καθ”, is not used at all in combination “ολης”. The word “ολης” is simply being used [as in many other places, 112 KJB [G3650]] as an adjective [“A-GSF”, Adjective – Nominative, Singular, Feminine], to describe the amount [of persons thereof, locally] of the church if [a possibility] they came together as one group. It does not designate the church as “καθολικος”.​

    Each attempt to 'find' this word, “καθολικος”, in scripture [KJB] yields no [0] results. The words “καθ” [used 378 times in the GNT TR, G2596] and/or “ολης” [used 112 times in the GNT TR, G3650] are used throughout the scripture, in various ways, most of which are never in connection with the word “εκκλησια” whatsoever.
     
  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Sorry ONE BAPTISM,

    Catholic as in the Catholic church is not a BRAND NAME.

    SO you can argue its 5 words or 1,


    This is very interesting though. So you are saying the Catholic Church never fell and was never legit, Because If I remember from writings of Ellen G White the idea is the Catholic was good fell and what is left is a Remnant Church.

    You can't be an apostasy unless you were part of the real deal to begin with.

    According to the know-it-all and self proclaimed prophetess.


    Ellen G White says the POPE changed the worship from Saturday to Sunday.

    This would not matter if its not the legit church to begin with. That is like being upset a rapist didn't even leave their phone number with you.

    Show us what pope changed the date.


    This is what happens when you got some children of the corn nut leading your faith. The fact your taught to hate Catholics thats pretty evil. All done under the guise of FEAR which is the worst form of hatred.

    And now you guys don't want to stop doing abortions because that would be too catholic, thats messed up.


    The reason the SDA church is not against abortion on the principle that it would be "A step back towards Rome" and "we are confronted by hunger and overpopulation"
    Its more worried about ROME being right about anything even the issue of KILLING CHILDREN.
     
  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Hey brother! I spent quite a few weeks in a personal conversation with a Catholic friend on the subject of Sola Scripture. It was time well spent which in the end, after a thorough attempt to debunk the position, was left standing strong.

    The purpose of this thread is to get to the heart of one's beliefs. So often folks refuse to answer simple pointed questions concerning personal life applications of what they say they believe concerning the Scriptures. We know each others positions very well, the challenge is to defend those positions by explaining how you live your own life according to those said beliefs and how you view situational examples of real life. How often have you heard the phrase "your argument is with the text"??? This generally is the last resort when a person cannot defend their position with real life situations, even their own.

    Personally, I attempt to answer every question put to me and do not purposefully avoid any. This is because I am fully confident in what i believe according to the scriptures I have studied and if I am not sure I will say I am not sure, I am not a "know it all". How often do you see questions ignored and unanswered? Or the question is replaced with a different question and then they answer their own question and declare they have answered your question? If a person's positions are right and sound in their own minds then they should have no problem answering any question posed towards them. Throwing every question I could possibly think of against all doctrines is how I came to the conclusions I have over these past twenty years of study and debate. No one should be afraid of answering a question.

    Blessings!
     
  4. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    The fact that the word is not found in the Scriptures does not matter in the least. We were given the Church to decide things, led by real live human beings called Bishops who led and taught with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not just write a book, nor instruct one to be written and then leave it to the rest of us to figure out, but established a church with real authority here on earth.

    St. Paul himself was part of that hierarchy and his letters to the various churches ( i.e. parishes) telling them what to believe and where they were going wrong proves it. Not everything was written down my friend during the course of Christian teaching.
     
  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I'm not sure I follow this reasoning. What they knew about what? Jesus?
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I think the biggest issue when it comes to Tradition is whether a tradition that may seem to conflict with what Scripture teaches arises.

    All denominations have traditions, that is a given, but, whether those traditions should be followed should be decided on what is written.

    An example might be, I am a Baptist, but it irritates me to no end that most Baptists teach tithing as a Christian practice. I disagree with that, and view tithing as an Old Testament principle. Nowhere in the New Testament is tithing taught, though the principle is, in that we give to support those that minister the word, care for those in need, etc. But this tradition would make for a poor example of something that conflicts with God's Word, because it does not. Only its name, lol.

    So while I believe the "Church" has been given leadership to deal with issues that might go out of explicit instruction, principle, commandment, and example, I would take issue with leadership when it comes into conflict with what we already know is God's will for us.


    God bless.
     
    #46 Darrell C, Jan 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Spot on! If one really wants to stick to the tithing commands given to Israel they better understand that is more than just 10% of their weekly check. No, it's not about a number, it's about giving in faith for God's work.

    I once was teaching on traditions in my senior adult SS class and when I explained to them Sunday morning worship was a tradition and not a commandment I thought they were going to tar and feather me!! Lol.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Uh yeah, been there done that, lol. Escaped safely, though.


    God bless.
     
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  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Well I know I get a lot of emotion and push back whenever I bring up that Bible detail
     
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  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Nor is it the mark of the beast either. ;)
     
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Hey Bob, you need to scroll back through the thread, you have a lot of unanswered questions.
     
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Hey utilyan, I have answered all your questions. You still have a few outstanding, here is one you haven't answered yet....

    The question for you is, how does your sin, which you admit you have, cause you to COMPLETELY lose your salvation??
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "I have" a lot of unanswered questions??

    Don't you mean "you have"?? :)
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    you're probably wrong about that too.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    hmmm... looks ok to me
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    yes I did.

    I never said they needed to be rescued before they fell.

    Why make that up??
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What difference does it make?

    Why argue for points that don't make any difference??

    This is why I prefer the Bible because otherewise it gets to pointless ideas such as the above.
     
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    If it does not make any difference you would have no reason for not answering. I believe in your heart you know it does make a difference and just don't want to go to that place that may rock your world.

    If it really is pointless, you would simply answer the question and that would be the end of it, but of course you know it will lead you where you do not want to go....
     
  19. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I did not say you said it. You gave Lucifer as an example against OSAS. Well, Lucifer was never once saved so how can you use him as an example? Or Adam for that matter?
     
  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Every sin requires a disloyalty and hatred of God. Sin is the devil's worship. If you are there you are not saved you need saving.

    Spit in God's face and say I'm just fine.




    Matthew 16

    24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26“For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.


    Who do you think you are being saved FROM?

    Hebrews 12

    7It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.


    There is absolutely nothing to stop God from you getting your own way and having you live forever in that manner. Instead "He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness."

    When you sin you are also a victim to fear and ignorance. As a Parent you would not want your children to suffer and rely on evil. Children's safety? you already guarantee it. God can will you dead or alive as he wishes, what he won't do is force your mind committing a mental murder.of wiping who you are with someone else. Who you ought to be nor is God here to learn lessons it is us who are sinners.


    You got to look past this idea life is some courtroom or customs office checking to see if you got your god-papers, life is a classroom. Its a place of a learning not a concentration camp that is only concerned if you have been branded on your hand or marked on your head.

    The laws, the discipline, Jesus all these things God brought for OUR GOOD. There is a tiny flaw to eternal sinning which is eternal separation from God. The motive has always been your well being and the suffering you put yourself through when you mistakenly sin.
     
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