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Featured No Scripture Challenge

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I'm not clear how this is answering my question. Maybe I am not wording it right.

    You made the statement that when you sin you lose your salvation COMPLETELY. Then after probing a bit you stated that you do sin. So I am trying to understand how this works as you see it in your own life as you sin from day to day. How would you ever know if you are saved or not each day?

    P.S. Remember this is a no scripture challenge. It is a personal life application thread on each others beliefs. How what one believes is played out in one's life and makes sense. Blessings!
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    True. Sinless and perfect without even a taint of a sinful nature...yet still made a bad choice.

    By contrast the sinner on earth who is a Christian - still has a sinful nature and even you argue he cannot perfectly obey the Word of God. How much MORE likely that the corrupt sinful-nature enhanced Christian can "make a poor choice".

    The "rescued" state of the sinner - leaves him with a sinful-nature-still. And we both know it.

    the point remains. obviously.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Protestants have no such need to avoid scripture -- as it turns out.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Why argue for points that don't make any difference??

    This is why I prefer the Bible because otherewise it gets to pointless ideas such as the above.

    if it makes no difference and it does not matter and I would have no reason to wase my time with it since Christ and Paul already give the examples of failure for those forgiven and standing by faith.

    the point remains.

    I believe in your heart you know it is a silly point and the Bible refutes it so you seek to avoid the Bible altogether.
     
  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Steaver you not in heaven.

    You in the water someone throws as Life Guard at you. "I'm SAVED"
    When you grab it. "I'm SAVED"
    When they are pulling you in. "I'm SAVED"
    When you are on the boat."I'm SAVED"
    When you are back home. "I'm SAVED"


    When you sin you have rejected your place in heaven, you have refused it and thrown it away, you don't want it at all.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is where having an actual Bible discussion on the topic would have been a lot more useful.
     
  7. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Of course this is not the point though and we both know it, right? The point is I believe the rescued sinner remains saved whenever they sin and you do not. Hence my investigative question....

    Have you yourself ever stepped in and out of salvation? Which you are afraid to answer.

    Why are you afraid to answer? I answer absolutely every question anyone puts to me for one reason; to assure myself I am following correct doctrine. If a said belief cannot be witnessed playing out in my own life or in others then that said belief has some serious flaws.

    You displaying your fear of answering my question only bolsters my point of this thread.

    The question remains for you..... Have you yourself ever stepped in and out of salvation?
     
  8. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    We all already know what the bible says. And we have went around and around on interpretation and context to no agreement. So this thread is designed to put forward your life applications of what you believe the bible is saying to you. Apply what you believe to your own life and how you have lived it out according to your beliefs. Why does this scare you? It does not scare me to answer your questions about my life, ask away!
     
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I keep asking you about you and you keep talking about me. Why are you avoiding my questions?

    I thought maybe I was not wording it right, but I'm not sure, maybe you just don;t want to answer.

    You made the statement that when you sin you lose your salvation COMPLETELY. Then after probing a bit you stated that you do sin. So I am trying to understand how this works as you see it in your own life as you sin from day to day. How would you ever know if you are saved or not each day?

    You do sin, correct? So what does this rejecting your place in heaven look like in your own life? How do you live day to day knowing or not knowing you are saved?
     
  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    It wasn't personally directed to you. I look at life as a classroom rather then a courtroom.

    I sin, being taught not to. I have a choice to drop out or not.


    "So what does this rejecting your place in heaven look like in your own life? "

    Like a lot of mercy.

    "How do you live day to day knowing or not knowing you are saved?"

    Who wakes up every day thanking their parents for not killing them? I have great parents. Its not like I have zero contact with God. Some times i argue with God and God explains himself.

    The bottom line is communication, life is just a means to it.

    There is box with a certificate inside saying I am saved forever. If I have to open that box and look it over whats that say about my trust in God?

    Point being why do you even bring up salvation in every subject?

    I got parents who get annoyed when I ask for a drink. Rumor is God is kinder then they are.


    Thanks for not shooting me today, Lord. I suppose is you are trying to get God to laugh thats a ok prayer.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Boy do I wish that were remotely true.

    You think we already know the word of God and all we need now is for you to "'make stuff up" to complete our doctrinal understanding? Please be serious.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    the "'life application" that we are seeing here is that you cannot defend OSAS from the Bible and so are "needing" a discussion of it where the Bible is "not allowed".

    That is "instructive" by every measure for the unbiased objective reader.

    Great example of it is where you ask for an example of someone losing salvation which we already have in Matthew 18 and Romans 11 and ask that we not "mention" the fact that the Bible already gave the answer!

    Instructive!! life application.
     
  13. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Your losing me. You are the one who said when you sin you lose your salvation COMPLETELY. Now you say there is a box with a certificate inside saying you are saved forever. Do you know what you believe or not?
     
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Been there done that oh maybe 20,000 times. Try defending Jesus Christ is the Son of God from the bible to a Muslim or Jew and see how that usually goes. Same as trying to convince an SDA what born-again means.

    Now, why do you fear applying your own beliefs to your own life?

    Still waiting................

    Your avoidance is speaking volumes you know? Why is this so hard for you??
     
  15. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Your comprehension is off. When you sin you lose your salvation completely.

    Isaiah 59

    2But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God,
    And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.


    Salvation is you stop sinning. You still sin? you are not saved. Being saved sure.

    The words salvation and saved, don't mean anything. If you were hungry and then got pizza, whether i slap the word saved or not you still got pizza.

    For you to be saved you have to stop sinning.


    Who is God saving you from?
     
    #75 utilyan, Jan 28, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Just an FYI, when you post scripture, I do not read it, not bc I do not love scripture, but since this is a thread for debating how one lives out what they believe and not a debate over scripture interpretation itself. Think of this thread like this, I could say I believe there is no God and post scripture to support my belief, now we would be debating the scripture I posted rather than my belief there is no God and what that means to me as I live out my life.

    Ok, I can work with this, not sure about your pizza problem, but anyways....

    So as you sin you believe you lose your salvation. This would mean that if you were to have a heart attack and die as you are in the act of a burst of uncontrollable unrighteous anger for instance, you would go to hell. Or if you walked past a homeless person and thought you should have done something but was too busy getting to another appointment, walked out in front of a truck and was killed, you would be damned to hell for that sin of failing to be the good Samaritan.

    Ok, this helps me to understand your beliefs on salvation better. You believe sin is the central factor God looks to for judgment of one's salvation. It's all about the sin. That is interesting.

    I believe salvation is all about Jesus Christ and nothing of myself. I believe sin is covered by the cross of Jesus Christ and since I am born of God I have been justified freely by His grace and God remembers my sin no more, not my past sins, my present sins nor my future sins, in fact He removes my sin as far as the east is to the west and when He looks upon me he sees no sin but looks upon me with the perfect love through Jesus Christ, which can only come from a perfect God. Just a sinner saved by grace. I believe I have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, and when I do sin Jesus says to the Father, "I paid for that sin too, this child is mine, I will correct him as he continues on".

    I see it is all about the sinning for you, I find that sad actually. I believe I am saved through faith in the Son of God and not of myself, my sins are many and I sin everyday, every time I do wrong. for all wrong doing is sin, I am not a perfect being, this is why I need Jesus Christ and Him alone as my Mediator.

    God is saving me from myself, for I cannot be sinless as you believe one needs to be and I cannot save myself from my sins. I need a Saviour. If I could be sinless I would have no need for Jesus Christ and His cross, nor his free gift of salvation/eternal life.

    This is why I started this thread, it gives great insight into the motivation behind what one follows. Why they belong to a particular church or sect, what that church is teaching them and how one's beliefs causes them to live out their lives in a particular way.

    I commend you for your honesty and willingness to state your position. It gives me and others here an understanding of what is being taught in the RCC churches. I believe your focus on the person sinning rather than on the Person doing the saving from the sinning is misdirected, but at least your are not afraid to state your beliefs.
     
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Have you yourself ever stepped in and out of salvation?

    Has anyone ever sinned before they existed? did everyone sin the moment they were born?
    Jesus Christ is doing the saving no doubt. But you seem to think he died to satisfy some spiritual mechanic by which you are now free to sin in heaven.

    The sinner is the HIGHEST PRIORITY. Jesus doesn't need your help, You need his help. But whats your standard? You expect some beam of light to shoot out the sky and zap you to heaven in a sinless state. The beam of light is the gospel Jesus preaches, the instructions he gives you .


    When you get to heaven there is no more sinning for you.

    Jesus Christ can DO ANYTHING absolutely anything. But you seem to think he can't even teach you to tie your own shoes.

    You believe God is that stupid? that he is incapable of teaching you how to not sin?

    Your short coming does not outweigh his greatness.


    Its true believe your driving instructor and you will drive a car safely. He gives instructions of practice and things we should do. But you say to yourself of course I drive safely i believe in my driving instructor......right into a brick wall.

    Jesus teaches and says to learn from him. We are taught Jesus is our exemplar.

    I didn't see Jesus grovel on someone else to save him. His priorities are on Love God and Love neighbor.

    "I believe I have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, and when I do sin Jesus says to the Father, "I paid for that sin too, this child is mine, I will correct him as he continues on".

    This is true. Hence your not in heaven, neither am I and we are not biting each other's head off, you are here talking to me, we are being CORRECTED as we continue on.


    Also we don't follow a COURTROOM legalism with an obsession over Salvation. Our obsession is Love God and Love neighbor.

    We don't spend hours at the dinner table declaring God is going to shoot or damn these guys but he is not going to shoot us.

    Every thread on this board has to do with obsession over one's salvation taking precedence over the COMMAND of GOD.


    There is people who will not do the command of God because it doesn't pay out in salvation, that is pathetic.

    "So as you sin you believe you lose your salvation. This would mean that if you were to have a heart attack and die as you are in the act of a burst of uncontrollable unrighteous anger for instance, you would go to hell. Or if you walked past a homeless person and thought you should have done something but was too busy getting to another appointment, walked out in front of a truck and was killed, you would be damned to hell for that sin of failing to be the good Samaritan."

    You can feed everyone in the world, never anger, makes no difference, a fear based motive of survival in salvation, has no righteousness. Love has to be the motive.

    I don't believe you are worst then anyone and its by the grace of God we're not the next crazy mass murderer. I think life is a classroom rather then a courtroom.

    My Calvinist buddies are still "SHOCKED" and "SURPRISED" by the miracle that GOD would even bother to save "a wretch" like them. Because they EXPECTED God to be a whole jerk rather then half a jerk.

    Is God going to kill me or not? is God going to kill you or not?........ <-- is not the broken record theme we run daily. :rolleyes:
     
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    No never. Once Jesus saved me I became a new creation, one with God, a child of God, born of God. There is nothing I could do to step in and out of that situation, nor would anyone ever want to.

    Q#1 No.

    Q#2 Everyone is born with the sin curse of Adam pumping through the flesh and is in need of the saving blood of Jesus Christ.

    Of course these questions do not relate to OSAS, which is speaking of a person getting saved through faith in Jesus Christ and then staying saved through faith in Jesus Christ.

    Since you brought my question for Bob into our conversation I think you should go ahead and give an answer as well....

    Have you yourself ever stepped in and out of salvation?

    This statement is sure out of left field. Could you provide my post which has somehow caused you to think such a ridiculous thing? If something I said gave you such an impression, please post my quote so I can explain it, if it needs explaining.

    Are you sure your responding to the correct thread? You're making some crazy statements.

    More weird statements.....

    Ok, that's a little more rational. I say AMEN! And this of course is another reason to understand OSAS.

    Lost me again....

    You are fading in and out of making coherent statements. But on this one you are back to making sense. I say AMEN!

    Lol. Now your back to crazy talk. I should hope Jesus didn't grovel for salvation. (You do know He is God and had no sin correct?)

    Actually, I should hope all Christians would be doing both commands from Jesus Christ. Peter and Paul certainly obsessed over salvation and the need for declaring Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Christ or else you could not be saved. I think we all better take Jesus' command to go into all the world and preach very seriously, for He said those who believe will be saved and those who do not will be damned. That is very serious!

    I should hope not.

    Salvation is the COMMAND of GOD. All commands of God flow from salvation through faith in the Son of God. No one can love God or love their neighbor rightly without the Spirit of Christ living in them.

    I am assuming here you are speaking about God's command to love God and love neighbor, correct? I thought you believed that doing these two commands does pay out in salvation??? Even if they reject Jesus Christ? Your not making any sense here.

    I agree. And one could devote their entire life to feeding the poor and caring for the downtrodden, yet hate God. For to reject the Love of Jesus Christ, who has displayed the ultimate Love of laying down His life for the sins of the world, is to Hate God and what God has done for them.

    Jesus made it very clear that no Son equals no salvation. You can call this a classroom or a courtroom, but either way, no Jesus, no salvation.

    I studied Calvinism extensively for about three years and found it unconvincing, but I know some good loving Christians who believe it wholeheartedly.

    I should hope not. It seems after talking with you, you are not worried in the slightest about losing your salvation, even though you said you sin and that when you sin you lose your salvation COMPLETELY. As you said here, your not worried if God is going to kill you or not. Does this mean you believe OSAS?
     
  19. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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  20. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    This is the point of this thread, showing how probing into the life application of one's beliefs will expose doctrines as truth or error. The hope is that once the belief has been tested, and it should fail the personal life application test, it would be repented of and abandoned.

    The final question that sifted out of the conversation and caused much distress to Ultilyan and BobRyan's held beliefs was... Have you yourself ever stepped in and out of salvation? While both men believe this is possible of the born of God, neither of them had ever experienced this in their own lives and I am assuming each man has been a believer for quite a number of years.
     
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