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Non-Baptist Religions and Security of the Believer
- Thread starter rufus
- Start date
I agree with Frank. The scriptures do not teach this doctrine. People take scriptures and twist them to fit for their beliefs. They want an easy believism. They want to enter Heaven the way they want to and Jesus said they are thief and robbers.
I have not met a person who believes in this doctrine who honestly live a truly Christian life. Why should they? They are eternally saved and secured. What does it matter if they sin?
It won't cost them anything especially not their soul. So they go blithely along deceiving themselves that in the end they will make Heaven but this is exactly why Jesus told believers that he never knew them. You see they cannot differentiate between works and sin.
I have not met a person who believes in this doctrine who honestly live a truly Christian life. Why should they? They are eternally saved and secured. What does it matter if they sin?
It won't cost them anything especially not their soul. So they go blithely along deceiving themselves that in the end they will make Heaven but this is exactly why Jesus told believers that he never knew them. You see they cannot differentiate between works and sin.
3AngelsMom
<img src =/3mom.jpg>
I believe that we have eternal security in Jesus, but I don't believe 'once saved always saved'.
You can grieve away the Holy Spirit, and no longer be 'in Christ' because of that.
It is the Holy Spirit that seals you.
The unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
I define that as living so wilfully sinful, KNOWING that all of what you are doing is sin, and doing it anyway, with no remorse, and no intention of stopping. The Holy Spirit can't stick around with a person who is like that.
That is how you get rid of Him!
Keeping Him is just the opposite! Fellowship with the Holy Spirit through obedience, worship, prayer, study, and evangelism. If we WALK in the Spirit, we WON'T fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
God Bless
You can grieve away the Holy Spirit, and no longer be 'in Christ' because of that.
It is the Holy Spirit that seals you.
The unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
I define that as living so wilfully sinful, KNOWING that all of what you are doing is sin, and doing it anyway, with no remorse, and no intention of stopping. The Holy Spirit can't stick around with a person who is like that.
That is how you get rid of Him!
Keeping Him is just the opposite! Fellowship with the Holy Spirit through obedience, worship, prayer, study, and evangelism. If we WALK in the Spirit, we WON'T fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
God Bless
All denominations that came out of the Protestant Reformation believe in the Preservation and Perserverance of the Saints. Methodists (and most of the denominations that came out of Methodism)do not believe this. My experience with Baptists is that they are fairly split on this issue.
Personally, I don't know of a single instance in Scripture where one comes to faith (by grace) and then becomes a nonbeliever.
However, I would give my Aremenian friends credit for consistency in their doctrine (even if I believe that they are doctrinally wrong) if they do not believe in eternal security. If you believe that your salvation is based upon "your choice to believe" then it is only logical that later on you could "choose NOT to believe."
My argument is usually with those who want to be Armenian in doctrine regarding salvation but Reformed in doctrine regarding eternal security. To me, that just doesn't seem to make sense.
Personally, I don't know of a single instance in Scripture where one comes to faith (by grace) and then becomes a nonbeliever.
However, I would give my Aremenian friends credit for consistency in their doctrine (even if I believe that they are doctrinally wrong) if they do not believe in eternal security. If you believe that your salvation is based upon "your choice to believe" then it is only logical that later on you could "choose NOT to believe."
My argument is usually with those who want to be Armenian in doctrine regarding salvation but Reformed in doctrine regarding eternal security. To me, that just doesn't seem to make sense.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Matt 18 and Ezekiel 18 both describe "forgiveness revoked".
Arminian views are simply those that state that you "have free will" in the sense that you are not "forced" to choose either for hell or for heaven - even after being saved.
I think all Southern Baptists believe you can not lose salvation but they split over the question of Calvinist vs Arminian. (see the Calvinist Vs Arminian debate section of this message board).
Basically a true Arminian can KNOW that he is saved today - but a true 5point Calvinist can not even know that. In the 5 point view - you are not saved today - if 30 years from now - you fall into apostacy - if you fail to endure then they say "you never WERE saved to begin with".
That is how they "ensure" OSAS.
In Christ,
Bob
Arminian views are simply those that state that you "have free will" in the sense that you are not "forced" to choose either for hell or for heaven - even after being saved.
I think all Southern Baptists believe you can not lose salvation but they split over the question of Calvinist vs Arminian. (see the Calvinist Vs Arminian debate section of this message board).
Basically a true Arminian can KNOW that he is saved today - but a true 5point Calvinist can not even know that. In the 5 point view - you are not saved today - if 30 years from now - you fall into apostacy - if you fail to endure then they say "you never WERE saved to begin with".
That is how they "ensure" OSAS.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Chrift,
The Arminian position is that the warning against falling (and the Matt 18 warning about forgiveness revoked) are "real" dangers.
In other words - it is not a "warning that the Easter Bunny might steal your cat at night" - a pointless warnding about an impossible event.
These are real warnings about real possibilities that God's Word is identifying.
The Arminian position is that the security is "in Christ" choosing to remain "faithful" as we see in Romans 11 "IF he did not spare the natural branches NEITHER will He spare you" set as a warning "they Fell by their unbelieve and You stand ONLY by your faith".
These Matt 18 and Romans 11 scenarios are in fact "Arminian" in that they show free will even AFTER salvation.
In Christ,
Bob
The Arminian position is that the warning against falling (and the Matt 18 warning about forgiveness revoked) are "real" dangers.
In other words - it is not a "warning that the Easter Bunny might steal your cat at night" - a pointless warnding about an impossible event.
These are real warnings about real possibilities that God's Word is identifying.
The Arminian position is that the security is "in Christ" choosing to remain "faithful" as we see in Romans 11 "IF he did not spare the natural branches NEITHER will He spare you" set as a warning "they Fell by their unbelieve and You stand ONLY by your faith".
These Matt 18 and Romans 11 scenarios are in fact "Arminian" in that they show free will even AFTER salvation.
In Christ,
Bob
Dan Stiles
New Member
What about Ananias and his wife Sapphira. When read in context, starting at least with Acts 4:32 and going through 5:11, one would believe that these two were members of the church and when we read earlier in Acts about how people were added to the church, it seems impossible that they were not saved. If these two people are not an example of salvation lost, then how about some of the Judaiasers who came from the church in Jerusalem but preached a false gospel? Comments?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Matt 18 Christ provides the perfect illustration of "Forgiveness Revoked" and ends this with the statement "SO shall my Father do to EACH of you if you do not forgive each one his brother from his heart".
In that scenario Forgivens for one another is born out of forgiveness RECEVIED from the Father for the Greater debt of Salvation. But Forgiveness REVOKED is the result (and the dire warning) regarding those who are Forgiven by God but then they refuse to forgive OTHERS just as THEY have been forgiven.
We see the "forgiveness revoked" principle alive and well in Ezekiel 18 as well.
As it turns out - the unforgiven will not be found in heaven.
In Christ,
Bob
In that scenario Forgivens for one another is born out of forgiveness RECEVIED from the Father for the Greater debt of Salvation. But Forgiveness REVOKED is the result (and the dire warning) regarding those who are Forgiven by God but then they refuse to forgive OTHERS just as THEY have been forgiven.
We see the "forgiveness revoked" principle alive and well in Ezekiel 18 as well.
As it turns out - the unforgiven will not be found in heaven.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
And as already stated - the Romans 11 scenario is a case where God's chosen - elect - people are IN Christ - as NATURAL vines and are then cast out - but then wild branches are brought in their place. To the Wild branches that have been Grafted in - Paul says "NEITHER Will God spare you".
This is why Galations 5 can make the bold claim "you HAVE Fallen From Grace" when addressing those who turned back from faith towards a works-righteousness-apart-from-faith.
In Christ,
Bob
This is why Galations 5 can make the bold claim "you HAVE Fallen From Grace" when addressing those who turned back from faith towards a works-righteousness-apart-from-faith.
In Christ,
Bob
Dualhunter
New Member
Paul wrote to the Romans, the point being that it is a collective audience, not an individual audience. Churches that preach the Gospel and teach the Bible tend to see increased growth. Mainstream church that have forgotten the Gospel and stray from the Bible tend to shrink up and eventually die, they are cut off from the vine and thrown into the fire if you will. They were once useful but not they are not and so God has cut them off. That does not mean that God broke His promises and revoked their salvation which He bought at the ultimate price of His unique Son.
Those who have trusted Christ and then try to be justified by the law have forgotten who redeemed them, their fellowship with God has been severed but once again, God's promises are not broken and He did not purchase in vain.
People often forget that God gives the Spirit freely to those who ask and that the Spirit is not simply a badge but a person.
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. - John 7:38-39 NASB
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB
A regenerated person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit doesn't just sit around not doing anything but rather is actively at work convicting and renewing the believer. This is manifested in the believers actions, and now the believer can forgive trespasses against his or herself just as the Father has and if the believer is having a hard time of it the Spirit isn't sleeping. A changed, regenerated person has a new outlook on life, if a person's life is centered around grudges, it is strong evidence that they have not been regenerated.
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 "I and the Father are one." - John 10:27-30 NASB
None can snatch Christ's sheep from out of His hand, nor from the hand of the Father, they will never perish. The fact that Jesus said they will never perish out to be enough but some will say that the sheep can walk away (as if Jesus would abandon them despite various parables about sheep) but that is effectively saying that people can snatch themselves from God's hand and as if they were their own and had not been bought at the ultimate price.
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. - 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 NASB
There are those who say that if you believe in free will then as a consequence you must believe a sheep can walk away to be consistent. But they forget that a person who has realized his or her fallen state, recognized they are bankrupt before God and completely unable to meet God's requirements and then entrusted their soul into God's hands has surrendered to God (i.e. made a choice to entrust their soul to God so it is in His hands and no longer in theirs to walk away with) been purchased by the blood of Christ (i.e. God has bought them at the highest price, the price of the life of His own Son and God will not be thwarted) and not only that but the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer is actively at work guiding the believer in all truth.
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. - Hebrew 6:4-9 NASB
Now if salvation could be lost it would be impossible to regain it. To say otherwise is to either deny the above or to deny that Christ purchased salvation by dying on the cross. But the author is convinced of better things concerning Christians for they entrusted their souls to God. If one could lose salvation, there would be no way to regain it as Christ died once and for all.
What it comes down to is to whom have you entrusted your soul? To God? Or to yourself or somebody else? If to God, your soul is secure in His hand.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 NASB
Those who have trusted Christ and then try to be justified by the law have forgotten who redeemed them, their fellowship with God has been severed but once again, God's promises are not broken and He did not purchase in vain.
People often forget that God gives the Spirit freely to those who ask and that the Spirit is not simply a badge but a person.
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. - John 7:38-39 NASB
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB
A regenerated person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit doesn't just sit around not doing anything but rather is actively at work convicting and renewing the believer. This is manifested in the believers actions, and now the believer can forgive trespasses against his or herself just as the Father has and if the believer is having a hard time of it the Spirit isn't sleeping. A changed, regenerated person has a new outlook on life, if a person's life is centered around grudges, it is strong evidence that they have not been regenerated.
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 "I and the Father are one." - John 10:27-30 NASB
None can snatch Christ's sheep from out of His hand, nor from the hand of the Father, they will never perish. The fact that Jesus said they will never perish out to be enough but some will say that the sheep can walk away (as if Jesus would abandon them despite various parables about sheep) but that is effectively saying that people can snatch themselves from God's hand and as if they were their own and had not been bought at the ultimate price.
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. - 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 NASB
There are those who say that if you believe in free will then as a consequence you must believe a sheep can walk away to be consistent. But they forget that a person who has realized his or her fallen state, recognized they are bankrupt before God and completely unable to meet God's requirements and then entrusted their soul into God's hands has surrendered to God (i.e. made a choice to entrust their soul to God so it is in His hands and no longer in theirs to walk away with) been purchased by the blood of Christ (i.e. God has bought them at the highest price, the price of the life of His own Son and God will not be thwarted) and not only that but the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer is actively at work guiding the believer in all truth.
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. - Hebrew 6:4-9 NASB
Now if salvation could be lost it would be impossible to regain it. To say otherwise is to either deny the above or to deny that Christ purchased salvation by dying on the cross. But the author is convinced of better things concerning Christians for they entrusted their souls to God. If one could lose salvation, there would be no way to regain it as Christ died once and for all.
What it comes down to is to whom have you entrusted your soul? To God? Or to yourself or somebody else? If to God, your soul is secure in His hand.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 NASB
WonderingOne
New Member
quote from hrhema
I believe we can lose fellowship with God if we stop seeking His face, or stop putting him first in our lives. But I do not believe that once we have accepted Christ as our Savior, God disowns us.
Sorry, but I take exception to the remark referenced above. I embrace the doctrine of eternal security, and I love God with all my heart. To those who do not believe OSAS, I would like to pose a few questions. Do you have children? Do they ever disappoint you? When they do wrong you correct them, but do you love them any less? Are they still your child? Of course! Yet the love of a parent for a child cannot even begin to be compared to the Love of God for His children. If one of my children committed murder my heart and my spirit would be broken, but they would still be my child. I cannot think of any scenario where I would completely wash my hands of one of my children. How much greater is the love of God for those He has redeemed?
I believe we can lose fellowship with God if we stop seeking His face, or stop putting him first in our lives. But I do not believe that once we have accepted Christ as our Savior, God disowns us.
Really? Where in that passage does it say that Ananias and Sapphira lost their salvation?
All I see is punishment, not revokation of salvation. There are no words from Peter about "this will happen to you"; there are no words of "these have lost their place in heaven." There is a simple story of what happens when we try to get one over on God.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Notice also in Luke 8 - 3 of the four types of ground bring forth life - belief - faith cause LIFE to spring up from the dead (dead in sin) but then in TWO of the 3 cases - that life is not sustained and it dies out again returning to the barren state of "dead in sin".
A good companion to Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked) and Romans 11 (Cast out of the vine) and Galations 5 "Fallen from Grace".
In Christ,
Bob
A good companion to Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked) and Romans 11 (Cast out of the vine) and Galations 5 "Fallen from Grace".
In Christ,
Bob
Dualhunter
New Member
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. - 1 John 2:19 NASB
I already dealt with the other verses.
Dualhunter
New Member
Those in those 2 kinds of ground appear to be alive because of their apparent growth, however they are not born again Christians. If they were they'd be secure in God's hand just as He promised and they would not have left just as John writing by the Holy Spirit stated:
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. - 1 John 2:19 NASB