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Featured Non-physical Humanity (was Millennium Thread)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Apr 8, 2021.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I felt that the previous Millennium thread was unplugged before its time. Not so much that topic but the even more important subject of the nature of Christ, the Son of Man, today and the related issue of just what is required to be human. I believe being human does not require flesh and blood but has to do with our soul, our spirit.

    My Christian father died eight years ago. He did not cease to be human because he right now does not have flesh and blood. Those who argue, like John of Japan does, that "To be human requires a physical body" then have the following results:
    1. Christians who die in the faith, because they no longer have flesh and blood, are no longer human.
    2. Perhaps they become human again (sic) when raises their bodies out of the graves (according to their eschatology)?

    If humanity requires physicality then we need to rethink the phrase "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" . Those three Patriarchs were apparently not human. Which is ridiculous.

    All of this is not idle speculation. It has to do with the nature of Christ and our future nature.
     
  2. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    A side note carried over from the last thread.


    I had written: ↑

    "Then you had no need to even bring up John 20. And, no, I do not believe that Jesus has a physical body now. These are no longer the "days of His flesh". Hebrews 5:7. Hebrews 2:14-18 helps us to understand the purpose and duration of those "days of the flesh"."

    John of Japan answered:

    "This is unorthodox, mistaken, un-Scriptural, and absolutely wrong. No orthodox or conservative or fundamental theologian believes this."

    Notice: I give Bible passages as my authority. Unanswered. John, you give theologians as your authority. This is why so many are misled in their theology. They use human authorities as their main authority.
     
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  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I was in a hurry and should have said, "to be fully human." We will all be resurrected. A resurrection means to receive a physical body, or Jesus was not bodily resurrected.

    That there will be a second resurrection according to Scripture is undisputed fact. And a resurrection means a body, a physical body.
     
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  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Human beings are complete with body and spirit (I believe the use of “soul” refers to the complete person: body/spirit).

    The human body is separated from the human spirit at death. Both remain “human”, just separated.

    No doubt the “resurrection” refers to the physical bodies. Those physical bodies are joined with their spirits, making the human complete again.

    Additionally, the human bodies are transformed at the resurrection. Though we don’t know exactly what the final result is, scripture refers to that state as incorruptible, immortal, and a “spiritual body”.

    The term “spiritual body” is particularly interesting. Paul combines the words for “spirit” and “flesh”. The word for “flesh”, if I remember correctly, is “sarx” and can be used to refer to a corpse.

    So any description of our resurrected bodies must acknowledge this physical aspect.

    To say our resurrected bodies are only “spiritual” denies this teaching from Paul.

    Additionally, Jesus’s resurrected human body must now be as our resurrected bodies will be.

    peace to you
     
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I was in a hurry, but felt I must say something about your false doctrine.

    You want Scripture? There is a ton of Scripture promising a resurrection of the dead. A resurrection means a body. That is undisputable. You saying that Christ no longer has a physical body is false doctrine, just as bad as your full preterism, which denies a physical second coming of Christ (a fundamental of the faith). You are a modern Sadducee to deny that there is a physical resurrection our bodies or that Christ no longer has a physical body. (By the way, when and how did Christ lose His physical body? There's nothing in Scripture about such an event--you are making it up.)

    Scriptures which teach a resurrection, and thus that we will have physical bodies:

    Mt 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
    Mt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
    Lu 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    Ac 4:2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
    Ac 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this [matter].
    Ac 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
    Ac 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
    Ac 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
    Ac 24:21 Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.
    Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
    1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    1Co 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
    1Co 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
    2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
    Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
    1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
    Re 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
     
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  6. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    This is really a pretty offensive statement. Did you actually, really think that I had no Scripture for my position, but only theologians? Really?

    I make my livelihood dealing with Scripture. It's my bread and butter. I was hired to teach Bible and theology because of my knowledge of Scripture. Quit making false attacks on me.
     
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    JOJ, I’m glad you’re posting here because I know you have a solid grasp of the Greek.

    Would you look at my post #4 and tell me if I remembered the use of “sarx” correctly?

    Thanks

    peace to you
     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The term "the days of his flesh" in Heb. 5:7 is an idiom referring to his agony in the Garden. It is certainly not proof that Jesus no longer has a physical body. That idea goes against all of the NT. A. T. Robertson says about the phrase, "An allusion to the Agony of Christ in Gethsemane." (Word Pictures in the NT, accessed through PowerBible software). It is always, always a mistake to take figurative language and build a doctrine out of it.

    As for Heb. 2:14-18, it specifically tells us that Jesus took on Himself "the seed of Abraham" (v. 16), not the nature of angels, which are spirits. And there is nowhere in Scripture that says Jesus put off the nature of Abraham, His physicality. That would have to be an event equivalent to the incarnation, but it does not exist in Scripture as an event, but only in the fevered imagination of asterisktom.
     
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm...
    Jesus has a physical body.

    Luke 24:36-43

    As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them.

    Acts 1:3

    He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.

    It amazes me that there are gnostics still denying the physical humanness of Jesus into eternity.
     
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  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The flesh, sarx, is always physical in Scripture in its normal usage. There is a metaphorical usage in which it represents our sin nature, as you know.

    As for "spiritual body" in 1 Cor. 15:44, that is actually the Greek word soma (σῶμα). In the verse in question it is even stronger than sarx would be! Here is what the Gingrich Shorter Lexicon says: "body of a human being or animal." The word soma can be used metaphorically, as in the "body of Christ," but it essentially and normally refers to a physical body. So according to 1 Cor. 15:44, our resurrection state is that of a physical body. Now it would be very strange if we had physical bodies in the resurrection but Jesus did not.

    And "spiritual" there does not mean "ghostly, incorporeal." The term pneumatikos (πνευματικός) means "pertaining to the spirit, spiritual" (Gingrich). It does not mean "ghostly," or "not having a body." Even in English, if we say, "That pastor is a spiritual man," we do not mean that he has no physical body, and is some kind of ghost!
     
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  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for correcting me on sarx/soma.

    Do we get the idea of a “glorified physical body” from this passage?

    peace to you
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'
    Does this mean that people who are born again do not have physical bodies? Confused
     
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  13. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    When you write "physical body" what do you mean by that? Does Jesus have some kind of body, but it is not "physical," as you describe it? If so, what is it?
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I think we do. Simply because it is a "spiritual body" does not mean it is no longer physical.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    SAME Jesus will return, and we shall be then raised up in SAME type body He was raised up in!
     
    #15 Yeshua1, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
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  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Full and final salvation in the biblical sense means that God reclaims for His glory this puny body/flesh, and glorifies it into that kind jesus was raised up in!
     
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Folks, I have just a few minutes on break from listening to an important lecture series sponsored by our seminary. But I have to make this point.

    The position asterisktom is taking is a huge departure from orthodox, evangelical doctrine. He is advocating nothing less than the reversal of the Incarnation. Now the Incarnation is one of the greatest events in all of history. God became human, and "was made in the likeness of men" (Phil. 2:7). Now, the Incarnation was a huge miracle, and the Scriptures give much space to it.

    I want to know, if the Incarnation has been reversed, and Jesus is no longer physical, when did this event happen and where does the Scripture tell about it?
     
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  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, we have the"theologians" to support our side, they are the Apostles of the Lord Jesus, especially John and Paul!
     
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul was referring to this sin body of the flesh being changed into same type of glorified body Jesus now has, so still physical. but changed, and not a ghost form!
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    His view is outright heresy!
     
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