Not under the Law
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by freeatlast, Jun 27, 2011.
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JesusFan said: ↑Iconoclast said: ↑jf
JF.....in these verses....Paul is explaining to Jews primarily not to listen to the judiazers...who were saying....new believers had to keep the ceremonial law to be saved!...He is not saying that the ten commandments are no longer in effect!
let me put it another way JF......which of the ten commandments are we "free" to break?
How do you love God?
Hank posted from romans 13;
What Paul quotes is a summary of the ten commandments....love is a fulfilling of the law......love is not ignoring the law,and substituing some new age, feel good sentimentality.
Hank correctly states this;
Actually, what I am saying is in agreement fully with Apostle paul!
We are FREED from being under the bondage and curse of the law, as we could not keep all of its requirements, and once Jesus paid the debt owed to God by myinability to perfectly keep it...
I now have His perfection reckoned to me . imputed to me by God Himself, and now I am free to serve obey and Love God in the power of His HS...
We do obey the Lord out of love and graditude, and do it in His power, wes till fail to obey Him in own Flesh...
NOT lawlessness, BUT a new live of living that OT saints could NOT know or do, as we now have the BETTER Covenat and BETTER PROMISES, as ALL sins have been forgiven and do have a personal realtionship established with God by the indwelling HS something OT did not have!
NOT antinomianism, as we do still will desire to obey God, and to stay in His will and plan, its just that we have now Law in our hearts, and the HS now allows us to fulfill and keep law "naturally" its called having Fruit of the Spirit!Click to expand...
I have a question for clarification. Are you saying that the OT saints did not have a personal relationship with God? And what feel it is that the OT saints did not know?Click to expand... -
freeatlast said: ↑JesusFan said: ↑JesusFan
I have a question for clarification. Are you saying that the OT saints did not have a personal relationship with God? And what feel it is that the OT saints did not know?Click to expand...
They believed God would send His messiah one day, we look back at Him now sent...
the Holy Spirit did NOT indwell OT people as he does now all Christians, as messiah not yet come, Full atonement in Cross not done yet in history...
that is a big part of a "better/Surer" Covenant in that we have forgivess of sins by God on basis of His Messiah death on Cross, and we have a personal relationship with God in person of Holy Spirit just not possible in OT era!Click to expand... -
JesusFan said: ↑freeatlast said: ↑Just saying that God dealt with people same way, that they in OT, just as we in NT era, have to have faith towards God and His messiah..
They believed God would send His messiah one day, we look back at Him now sent...
the Holy Spirit did NOT indwell OT people as he does now all Christians, as messiah not yet come, Full atonement in Cross not done yet in history...
that is a big part of a "better/Surer" Covenant in that we have forgivess of sins by God on basis of His Messiah death on Cross, and we have a personal relationship with God in person of Holy Spirit just not possible in OT era!Click to expand...
I agree they did not have the indwelling Spirit in the same way we have, but they had were saved by grace through faith even as we and they could not lose their salvation any more then we can so I assume the spirit was present in some fashion to seal them.Click to expand... -
freeatlast said: ↑JesusFan said: ↑I am not sure I agree with your understanding that they did not have a personal relationship. The Psalms seem to suggest differently as well as just about every other book.
I agree they did not have the indwelling Spirit in the same way we have, but they had were saved by grace through faith even as we and they could not lose their salvation any more then we can so I assume the spirit was present in some fashion to seal them.Click to expand...
Again, OT saints werre saved by putting personal faith in the promised coming Messiah, so God "overlooked/forbade" their sins, per Apostle paul , but NOW in NT time men are to repent and believe in Messiah Jesus...
they were under OT sacrificial system, that looked towards ultimate sacrifice to come of lamb of God, Jesus Christ...
And no, OT believers NOT in same spiritual way as us today, did NOT have sealing/infillingof the HS as we have, that ONLY was part of the "better" NT Covenant!Click to expand... -
freeatlast said: ↑MB what do you mean when you say "we are not under the Law" is speaking spiritually?Click to expand...
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Spiritually we keep the Law, Physcially we sin.
Read Romans 6&7 carefully and you will see what Paul means when He says the Law is spiritual. You will see how he separates the flesh from the spirit. This separation is what I meant by it being spiritual. We agree with the Law spiritually but the flesh dwells in sin.
MB -
MB said: ↑Answer;
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Spiritually we keep the Law, Physcially we sin.
Read Romans 6&7 carefully and you will see what Paul means when He says the Law is spiritual. You will see how he separates the flesh from the spirit. This separation is what I meant by it being spiritual. We agree with the Law spiritually but the flesh dwells in sin.
MBClick to expand...
IF we live by/in the Holy Spirit daily
We would end up doing what the law requires, not us, but Christ in us keeping it ! -
Iconoclast said: ↑let me put it another way JF......which of the ten commandments are we "free" to break?Click to expand...
You are "free" to break all of them that appeal to you to break.
You are free to eat a bowl of cesspool effluent, but do you want to?
A sheep has an appetite befitting his nature.
A hog has an appetite befitting his nature.
HankD -
JesusFan said: ↑freeatlast said: ↑Again, OT saints werre saved by putting personal faith in the promised coming Messiah, so God "overlooked/forbade" their sins, per Apostle paul , but NOW in NT time men are to repent and believe in Messiah Jesus...
they were under OT sacrificial system, that looked towards ultimate sacrifice to come of lamb of God, Jesus Christ...
And no, OT believers NOT in same spiritual way as us today, did NOT have sealing/infillingof the HS as we have, that ONLY was part of the "better" NT Covenant!Click to expand...Click to expand... -
JesusFan said: ↑IF we had NO record of the law of God today...
IF we live by/in the Holy Spirit daily
We would end up doing what the law requires, not us, but Christ in us keeping it !Click to expand...
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
Without the law we cannot know what the Lord expects of us even though we have the spirit. This is why the church is in such a bad way today. The law has been ignored and Pastors are not teaching it and the people live like the world. The law does not save nor has it ever, but the law does have need for today as it gives light to the saved as the Spirit uses it to convict.
A true believer will want to know what his Lord desires of Him. That is what the Spirit does to us. If the teachings of God (the commands) are not where he is the spirit will move him to where they are taught, but we must teach the things of God so as to know the right path to take. -
freeatlast said: ↑JesusFan said: ↑So are you saying that the OT saints could lose their salvation?Click to expand...
just that what happened pre/post the Cross IS a difference!
the Holy Spirit did NOT seal off OT saints, for it took the Cross to have Him come in that function to earth...
He did NOT stay permently inside believers, he merely 'came upon" them to fulfill a sprcific task/plan/office...
We are under a New Covenant, old things passed away, it wasjusta shadow of the glory that would come...
Now we live by vpower of HS, something OT believers did not have privelde of doing!
So law given to regulate their Flesh, and points towards Christ!
Once jesus came to earth, lived/died/rose again...
law fulfilled its purpose, now we are regulated by a new nature in the Holy spirit...
We read in bible to stop this and do that, but we also given means and power to do that, by Holy spirit
OT believers had NONE of that, they could not, until messiah came!Click to expand... -
JesusFan said: ↑IF we had NO record of the law of God today...
IF we live by/in the Holy Spirit daily
We would end up doing what the law requires, not us, but Christ in us keeping it !Click to expand...
Too many are still worried about the individual commandments. Forget about them, and Love God and your neighbor as your self and we will keep everything in the Law simply because of Love. Just focus on Loving and not the Law. This would make us the best witnesses we could ever hope to be.
We wouldn't have known sin if it hadn't been for the Law.
MB -
JesusFan said: ↑freeatlast said: ↑No...
just that what happened pre/post the Cross IS a difference!
the Holy Spirit did NOT seal off OT saints, for it took the Cross to have Him come in that function to earth...
He did NOT stay permently inside believers, he merely 'came upon" them to fulfill a sprcific task/plan/office...
We are under a New Covenant, old things passed away, it wasjusta shadow of the glory that would come...
Now we live by vpower of HS, something OT believers did not have privelde of doing!
So law given to regulate their Flesh, and points towards Christ!
Once jesus came to earth, lived/died/rose again...
law fulfilled its purpose, now we are regulated by a new nature in the Holy spirit...
We read in bible to stop this and do that, but we also given means and power to do that, by Holy spirit
OT believers had NONE of that, they could not, until messiah came!Click to expand...
Then there is paul who said he kept the law (my words, he says blameless) while under it. Phl. 3:6,7) How do we explain that if the law of moral commands are not for us also and the Lord said to teach them? I agree they do not save and never have, but they are for today as well as back then. They just serve a different purpose and without them we would not know how to live even with the residing Spirit.
The problem is not the commands. The problem is we are not listening to them because many think, and even joy in, that the phrase "not under the law" is a licience to sin.Click to expand... -
freeatlast said: ↑JesusFan I assume you have never been to the mission field. If you ever get the chance take it and go someplace where they have no bibles. Win someone to the Lord then don't tell them anything about living holy and see what happens. I can tell you nothing will happen. if they lied before they will still be liars. if they were fornicators before salvation they will still be fornicators. If they were thieves before they will still be thief's. That is why scripture says this.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.Click to expand...
The law teaches beyond a shadow of a doubt what we are - sinners -that is true and periodically the Spirit use the law to remind us from whence we were taken.
e.g. When I yield to lust, the still small voice of the Spirit reminds me "thou shalt not", if I don't acknowledge the lustful thought and get back following His leading and persist then sooner or later "whom the Lord loves He chastises" comes into play and indeed, I have gone to the woodshed on those occasions.
So yes, the law defines the boundaries but The Spirit rules over and guides me, not the boundaries.
Without the law we cannot know what the Lord expects of us even though we have the spirit. This is why the church is in such a bad way today. The law has been ignored and Pastors are not teaching it and the people live like the world. The law does not save nor has it ever, but the law does have need for today as it gives light to the saved as the Spirit uses it to convict.
A true believer will want to know what his Lord desires of Him. That is what the Spirit does to us. If the teachings of God (the commands) are not where he is the spirit will move him to where they are taught, but we must teach the things of God so as to know the right path to take.Click to expand...
We have a supernatural metamorphosis by which the flesh and its works are overcome:
2 Corinthians 3
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
We are transformed from the image of Adam to the image of Christ not by the law or the Ten Commandments but by beholding the glory of Jesus Christ in the inspired word through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
HankD -
HankD said: ↑This is only partially true Mel. One thing that happened to me and presumably any new born child of God is that I lost my capacity to hate instantly.
The law teaches beyond a shadow of a doubt what we are - sinners -that is true and periodically the Spirit use the law to remind us from whence we were taken.
e.g. When I yield to lust, the still small voice of the Spirit reminds me "thou shalt not", if I don't acknowledge the lustful thought and get back following His leading and persist then sooner or later "whom the Lord loves He chastises" comes into play and indeed, I have gone to the woodshed on those occasions.
So yes, the law defines the boundaries but The Spirit rules over and guides me, not the boundaries.
Again, the church is in the bad way it is today because of legalism, an obsession with rules and laws, and yes even the flesh trying to keep the Ten Commandments.
We have a supernatural metamorphosis by which the flesh and its works are overcome:
2 Corinthians 3
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
We are transformed from the image of Adam to the image of Christ not by the law or the Ten Commandments but by beholding the glory of Jesus Christ in the inspired word through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
HankDClick to expand...
[SIZE=+0]While it is true that we are transformed by the The Lord and not the law the church has used the scripture against the scripture to justify its sin. Ignoring the teaching of what righteousness looks like by spelling out what is sin is not legalism. Not doing so is a flaw and has sent the church into what we see today.[/SIZE]
So back to the question what is meant to not be under the law? I can tell you it does not mean we are not to obey the commands nor are we to hide from mentioning them by calling those who do teach and do them legalists. There has to be the balance in the church which is lost today sending the church into Luke warmness.
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freeatlast said: ↑[SIZE=+0]If there is anything the church is not caught up in today it is legalism. That is not to say that there are no legalists, but the church as a whole is certainly not. Even the Revelation makes it clear that the church before Christ comes will be lukewarm and it certainly is that today. The falling away is in full force. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]While it is true that we are transformed by the The Lord and not the law the church has used the scripture against the scripture to justify its sin. Ignoring the teaching of what righteousness looks like by spelling out what is sin is not legalism. Not doing so is a flaw and has sent the church into what we see today.[/SIZE]
So back to the question what is meant to not be under the law? I can tell you it does not mean we are not to obey the commands nor are we to hide from mentioning them by calling those who do teach and do them legalists. There has to be the balance in the church which is lost today sending the church into Luke warmness.
Click to expand...
The problem with legalism is that most folks don't recognize it and are unaware that they are caught up in it.
It is not just works but doctrinal legalism as well of which the ultimate outcome is strife and division.
What is lukewarmness? Mixing hot and cold together.
This outcome is because of the influence of the tares which have been sown among the wheat.
So yes, rules and regulations are forthcoming to "compensate" and indeed they are necessary to keep them in check. But rules are not the ultimate answer but "painting of the hives" (and yes, what else can a pastor do?).
No one needs to tell any child of God who is indwelt by the Spirit what sin is. The fact that an individual needs to be told indicates something is wrong with the heart.
No one needs to tell any child of God that 24/7 fellowship with God is the norm and not the exception.
I will agree that by and large the church has fallen asleep and slumbers.
My point which is different than yours - Sin is the symptom not the cause... rules, regulations, obsessing with commandment keeping only deals with the symptom.
The Spirit has been quenched in bringing forth His primary fruit.
Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
The consequence - strife and division and evil works in the church at large. This dims the light of Christ flowing through us.
Matthew 5
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
The light of Christ is hidden under the basket of strife and division.
Contending for the faith is one thing and is required, strife and division another and a work of the flesh.
Thankfully, I left that and churches of that ilk behind several years ago.
So take the last word if you wish brother Mel, I'll bow out unless you ask a direct question.
Thank you for contending your position(s) without being contentious.
I don't think we are very far apart on this current issue.
HankD -
freeatlast said: ↑JesusFan said: ↑Then how do you account for those saints in the OT who lived godly lives even more so them many claimed Christians today? For instance Daniel and the mother of Jesus. No place in the NT is anyone ever said to be highly favored like Mary was. Also how about John the Baptist? If the coming of the Spirit gave us the ability to live godly lives how did these people do it and we mostly don't?
Then there is paul who said he kept the law (my words, he says blameless) while under it. Phl. 3:6,7) How do we explain that if the law of moral commands are not for us also and the Lord said to teach them? I agree they do not save and never have, but they are for today as well as back then. They just serve a different purpose and without them we would not know how to live even with the residing Spirit.
The problem is not the commands. The problem is we are not listening to them because many think, and even joy in, that the phrase "not under the law" is a licience to sin.Click to expand...
There is a HUGH difference and advantage for us today under new Covenant...
personal relationship directly with God, NO mediators as under Law, Holy Spirit indwells/infills us, and He lives out/works out life of Christ in us!
NONE of them possible under law and Old Covenant!Click to expand...
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