ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
So then, what I found on their website with regard to their ecumenism, would have them yoked with apostate groups?
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Obama Appoints Baptist Pastor Ambassador
- Thread starter Jerome
- Start date
So then, what I found on their website with regard to their ecumenism, would have them yoked with apostate groups?
Because she is female, or for some other reason?
Yes, because she is a female. She has no right to the office of pastor. Those that placed her in that office are in clear violation of the word of God.
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Was interested in the most recent church she was in: Bronx Christian Fellowship. She helped to found the church. This is their mission and vision statement:
Vision & Mission Statements
Our Vision
To make disciples and to mature them in the wisdom and knowledge of Jesus Christ for the work of the ministry until justice runs down as waters and righteousness as a mighty stream. (Amos 5:24)
Our Mission
To demonstrate the love of Christ by bringing justice to all people from all walks of life in fulfillment of the scriptures from the mouth of Jesus: "for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me. I was ill and you comforted me, in prison and you came to visit me." (Matthew 25:31-40)
Was interested in the most recent church she was in: Bronx Christian Fellowship. She helped to found the church. This is their mission and vision statement:
Vision & Mission Statements
Our Vision
To make disciples and to mature them in the wisdom and knowledge of Jesus Christ for the work of the ministry until justice runs down as waters and righteousness as a mighty stream. (Amos 5:24)
Our Mission
To demonstrate the love of Christ by bringing justice to all people from all walks of life in fulfillment of the scriptures from the mouth of Jesus: "for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me. I was ill and you comforted me, in prison and you came to visit me." (Matthew 25:31-40)
Libbies continue to misuse that passage.
Well I didn't question you regarding whether or not you thought she should be a pastor.
You previously asserted:
I quoted the part where you said:
and responded:
Completely aside from the issue of women serving as pastors, do you still assert that women should not be preachers?
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Was interested in the most recent church she was in: Bronx Christian Fellowship. She helped to found the church. This is their mission and vision statement:
Vision & Mission Statements
Our Vision
To make disciples and to mature them in the wisdom and knowledge of Jesus Christ for the work of the ministry until justice runs down as waters and righteousness as a mighty stream. (Amos 5:24)
Our Mission
To demonstrate the love of Christ by bringing justice to all people from all walks of life in fulfillment of the scriptures from the mouth of Jesus: "for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me. I was ill and you comforted me, in prison and you came to visit me." (Matthew 25:31-40)
I would not join that congregation. The mission of the Church is not to bring justice.
Unfortunately, the scripture teaches something else.
Both men and women preached ("prophesied") on the Day of Pentecost, and Peter quoted Joel in support of what was happening:
And this was not restricted to the Day of Pentecost... the man I know of who had four daughters who prophesied was written of by Luke:
Sure, women prophesied. Any women got that gift today? Didn't think so. Do you also believe every gift given to the early church is still given today? If so, where are they?
Paul said that when Christ ascended on high He lead captivity captive and gave gifts unto men. He gave some, apostles; some, prophets; some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers. So, He obviously gave some women the gift of prophecy. That gift isn't given anymore. Today the gift of pastor/teacher is still given. Who is it given to? Men. Thus, today the only ones who are supposed to preach in such an office is, you guessed it, men. Thank you.
This woman, and all women alive today, are not preachers.
Paul said that when Christ ascended on high He lead captivity captive and gave gifts unto men. He gave some, apostles; some, prophets; some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers. So, He obviously gave some women the gift of prophecy. That gift isn't given anymore. Today the gift of pastor/teacher is still given. Who is it given to? Men. Thus, today the only ones who are supposed to preach in such an office is, you guessed it, men. Thank you.
This woman, and all women alive today, are not preachers.
FR7 Baptist
Active Member
I don't have a problem with women preaching as long as they don't hold the office of pastor, which is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.
There are women who apparently have that gift. Baptist churches rarely recognize that gift among women today because they aren’t looking for it or they won’t allow it.
Spoke too soon! :wavey:
Yes, although not every gift is manifested in every congregation or cultural context. However, the gifts are provided as they are needed and received.
I am convinced I have witnessed legitimate expressions of all of the gifts in my 31 years of Christian faith. However, I have only witnessed one instance of speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues (July 4, 1987 – Stewart Beach, Galveston Island, Texas) that I thought was legitimate, although I have seen many people allegedly speak in tongues.
Yes.
No. I think you have a very narrow view of what the spiritual gift of prophecy is... Prophecy is the supernatural (in coordination with our natural abilities) to preach the truth of God effectively and powerfully to specific situations and contexts. It is the kind of preaching that is incisive, extremely practical, and demands a decision from its hearers.
It is less about “fore-telling” than it is about “forth-telling.”
Yes.
...and women.
Please note that having the gift of prophecy and/or pastor/teacher does not require that you hold that office in the church. Prophets work and minister in all kinds of vocations and contexts, and pastor/teachers do as well. I noticed that you are a Primitive Baptist. While I am not terribly familiar with Primitive Baptist life, I can imagine that, in your context, women who have the gift of pastor/teacher study the scripture carefully and then encourage, counsel, support, and gently teach other women (and even their husbands) as they go about their lives. They also live as a model of faithfulness, encouraging others to follow God by their example.
And I haven’t raised the issue of women as pastors with you, so this is irrelevant to our discussion.
You base that pronouncement on the belief that the gift of prophecy is not given today. Now I know the proof-text that people normally use to make this assertion (from 1 Corinthians 13), but that verse refers to Christ, not scripture.
I don’t have any illusions that I will change your mind, but I do want to point out some of the scripture that people usually ignore when referring to the roles of women in the church and society. I just want to give you something to think about.
Be careful, someone is going to call you a "liberal"! :laugh:
God doesn't give a gift to someone who can't hold the office.
When the bible speaks of the gift of prophecy it speaks of the ability to prophesy. You have changed the meaning to fit your skewed view. To prophesy is to fore-tell something. That is used all over the scriptures. It is also so in the NT. Consider this passage which speaks of something some prophets in the NT church did, these being people to whom the Lord had given the gift of a prophet.
Acts 11
27 - "And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch."
28 - "And there stood up one of them named agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar."
29 - "Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judea:"
30 - "Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul."
What did this prophet do? Did he just preach powerfully? No, he fortold an event that would later take place. The brethren there decided, in light of this prophecy, to send relief to those brethren would be affected by the dearth. A NT prophet, like an OT prophet, is one who tells of future events in advance. That gift is not given today.
Why aren't these gifts, the gifts of apostle, prophet, tongues, etc, given today? Those things were given to the church in its infancy to confirm the message, the messengers, and to help the church along till it grew up. Now, we are no longer children. Having grown up we have something better than childish things, we have the entirety of scripture. We have no need for tongues or a prophet because we have whole counsel of God. God spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets but now He has spoken unto us by His Son, and we have this entire record at our disposal.
When the bible speaks of the gift of prophecy it speaks of the ability to prophesy. You have changed the meaning to fit your skewed view. To prophesy is to fore-tell something. That is used all over the scriptures. It is also so in the NT. Consider this passage which speaks of something some prophets in the NT church did, these being people to whom the Lord had given the gift of a prophet.
Acts 11
27 - "And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch."
28 - "And there stood up one of them named agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar."
29 - "Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judea:"
30 - "Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul."
What did this prophet do? Did he just preach powerfully? No, he fortold an event that would later take place. The brethren there decided, in light of this prophecy, to send relief to those brethren would be affected by the dearth. A NT prophet, like an OT prophet, is one who tells of future events in advance. That gift is not given today.
Why aren't these gifts, the gifts of apostle, prophet, tongues, etc, given today? Those things were given to the church in its infancy to confirm the message, the messengers, and to help the church along till it grew up. Now, we are no longer children. Having grown up we have something better than childish things, we have the entirety of scripture. We have no need for tongues or a prophet because we have whole counsel of God. God spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets but now He has spoken unto us by His Son, and we have this entire record at our disposal.
My view as well.
The OT prophets primarily spoke to the issues of their day. Fore-telling was incidental to their primary ministry of being spokespersons for God in their context.
I'm not going to argue the case in this thread because this is moving well past the original topic regarding Obama's appointment.
A prophet is one who speaks the word of God. Period
Oh no...not you too! You guys have got to stop agreeing with me.:laugh:
I like short and sweet answers. It cuts through all the junk.