Obedience

[ONENESS]

Wow, it's been along time since I've started a topic here. Some of you know me, and some do not. So I want to start out by saying "HELLO" to my old friends.

A year or two has gone by since I have been here and I know views, ideas, and philosophies are able to change over time. So today I want to pose an old discussion that I posed in the past.

Is Salvation dependent on obedience?

 

[tragic_pizza]

yes.

 

[donnA]

Salvation is dependent on the grace of God alone, unless one has to help Jesus finish their salvation for them, which would mean salvation isn't by Christ alone.

 

[tragic_pizza]

So we have to obey no one in order to be saved? Cool!

 

[dclark14]

Salvation is an unconditional free gift of God, and obedience is therefore not a condition FOR salvation. The Spirit is given to those who obey, it is true, but here obedience is conditional upon first being saved and is a proof of salvation having taken place. Knowing Jesus Christ as Lord, I am to trust and obey.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by dclark14:
Salvation is an unconditional free gift of God, and obedience is therefore not a condition FOR salvation. The Spirit is given to those who obey, it is true, but here obedience is conditional upon first being saved and is a proof of salvation having taken place. Knowing Jesus Christ as Lord, I am to trust and obey.

So if I get saved, but don't obey, I was never saved?

Gee, God is really wishy-washy, isn't He?

... see it yet?

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by donnA:
Salvation is dependent on the grace of God alone, unless one has to help Jesus finish their salvation for them, which would mean salvation isn't by Christ alone.

*scraches head*

what about this verse?

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[tragic_pizza]

...my point exactly...

 

[Phillip]

Fascinating. Turning a "grace" salvation into a "works based" salvation.

I take it, tragic_pizza that you do not believe in "eternal security", is this correct?

 

[music4Him]

I would have to say you need to check the fruit in a person who says they are saved.....

Mt. 12:33 -
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Ga. 5:22 -
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

If there is no change after one says they are saved, then what? Then once one is saved wouldn't being obediant inportant?

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by dclark14:
Salvation is an unconditional free gift of God, and obedience is therefore not a condition FOR salvation. The Spirit is given to those who obey, it is true, but here obedience is conditional upon first being saved and is a proof of salvation having taken place. Knowing Jesus Christ as Lord, I am to trust and obey.

The spirit is given to those who obey

The bible tells us in Romans 8:9 if we do not have the Holy Spirit we are none of his.

The Holy Spirit is also the seal of our salvation. It's the evidence that we are saved. (Eph 1:13)

So which one is it? Do we have to obey or not?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Phillip:
Fascinating. Turning a "grace" salvation into a "works based" salvation.

I take it, tragic_pizza that you do not believe in "eternal security", is this correct?

Thanks, Phillip, for putting words in my mouth. We are saved by grace, not by works. You know I was going to say that, and you are simply baiting me.

In order to grow into our salvation, grwoing into Christ, very Biblical concepts, our obedience to Christ is mandatory. No matter how deep our intellectual agreement to the doctrines involved in getting dunked or joining a church may be, without obedience we will be lost.

So if that does not equal "eternal security," then no, I don't beleive in "eternal security." If, on the other hand, "eternal security" refers to the inability of Satan or the things of the world to snatch us from the hand of the Almighty, then yes I do. I guess you'll have to make a value judgement based upon that, and condemn me appropriately.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Phillip:
Fascinating. Turning a "grace" salvation into a "works based" salvation.

I take it, tragic_pizza that you do not believe in "eternal security", is this correct?

Obedience is part of grace my friend. It's a part of faith as well. And more importantly it's a part of salvation.

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Either you believe it or you don't. That's what the bible says.

 

[ONENESS]

no more takes on the subject?

 

[MEE]

Hi ONENESS,

....glad to see your back!

MEE

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by MEE:
Hi ONENESS,

....glad to see your back!

MEE

You too MEE. How have you been? Guess what? My wife and I are proud parents now. I'll try to send a pic later.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I hope you don't mind if I stir the pot a little.

Paul, in 1 Cor. 6:12 says "Everthing is permissible". Everything even includes disobedience. We have a marvelous freedom to do anything our little hearts could desire to do and our God is so great and so forgiving because of the sacrifice of His Son that he won't take away our salvation. Salvation is free. Totally free, "lest any man should boast"(Eph 2:9) that he is more obedient than another.

Works are works are works. It doesn't matter what face you put on them including the face of obedience. We are saved by grace through faith. Faith being the action by with we place our trust in Christ who paid for our sins.

That said, Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor, that just because we can do the desires of our heart, it is not always good for us, or for the furthering of the news of Christ who is the cause of our salvation. People aren't totally dumb. We know what is good for us. Even more so after we accept Christ and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit who helps to guide and comfort us. If it was good for us to accept Christ then it is good for us to do as he commands. But doing so has nothing to do with the actual act of our salvation. It may portray that we have been saved, but it doesn't save us. (back to that "so no man may boast" thing)

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
I hope you don't mind if I stir the pot a little.

Paul, in 1 Cor. 6:12 says "Everthing is permissible". Everything even includes disobedience. We have a marvelous freedom to do anything our little hearts could desire to do and our God is so great and so forgiving because of the sacrifice of His Son that he won't take away our salvation. Salvation is free. Totally free, "lest any man should boast"(Eph 2:9) that he is more obedient than another.

Works are works are works. It doesn't matter what face you put on them including the face of obedience. We are saved by grace through faith. Faith being the action by with we place our trust in Christ who paid for our sins.

That said, Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor, that just because we can do the desires of our heart, it is not always good for us, or for the furthering of the news of Christ who is the cause of our salvation. People aren't totally dumb. We know what is good for us. Even more so after we accept Christ and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit who helps to guide and comfort us. If it was good for us to accept Christ then it is good for us to do as he commands. But doing so has nothing to do with the actual act of our salvation. It may portray that we have been saved, but it doesn't save us. (back to that "so no man may boast" thing)

Ok, let me ask an old time favorite question of mine.

Does one have to repent to be saved?

 

[menageriekeeper]

I don't know, can you repent more than I can?

Simply put, repentance is a work of the heart. Obedience is a work of the hand. As such, you can't compare the two.

As a side note, since I believe that belief must come before repentance, do you know how many times that words repent, repented, repentance, occur as compared to the words beleif, believe, believed? There are sixty two references to repentance in the NT, there are at least 3 times that many references to belief. It speaks for itself that God places more emphasis on belief than repentance, for without belief what is there to repent of?

The answer to your question is that repentance comes with belief, hand in hand, and that unto salvation.

Let me say again though that repentance, is not a physical thing that can be pointed to and it said that I repented better than you, or longer than you and therefore God likes me better and saves me more. It is not a work such as obedience that has a physical result that can be seen by man.

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
I don't know, can you repent more than I can?

Simply put, repentance is a work of the heart. Obedience is a work of the hand. As such, you can't compare the two.

As a side note, since I believe that belief must come before repentance, do you know how many times that words repent, repented, repentance, occur as compared to the words beleif, believe, believed? There are sixty two references to repentance in the NT, there are at least 3 times that many references to belief. It speaks for itself that God places more emphasis on belief than repentance, for without belief what is there to repent of?

The answer to your question is that repentance comes with belief, hand in hand, and that unto salvation.

Let me say again though that repentance, is not a physical thing that can be pointed to and it said that I repented better than you, or longer than you and therefore God likes me better and saves me more. It is not a work such as obedience that has a physical result that can be seen by man.

I would have to disagree with you. Repentance is just as much as a work at baptisim. Both are commaned and both are required.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Simply put, repentance is a work of the heart. Obedience is a work of the hand. As such, you can't compare the two.

How can one differentiate b/t what is a work of the heart and hand? Isn't baptism circumcission of the heart?

Let me say again though that repentance, is not a physical thing that can be pointed to and it said that I repented better than you, or longer than you and therefore God likes me better and saves me more. It is not a work such as obedience that has a physical result that can be seen by man.

again, I can just as easy tell someone that I repented as I was baptized. You can boast about both.

And if I wanted to draw the line close enough I am allowed to go as far as to say that believing is a work baced on our part. I can say "hahahah, i belive and you dont". See, now I'm boasting believing.

Sorry to cut short, I have to go get ready for work. Thinks for a good conversation. Look forward to coming home and seeing your replys.

Lord Bless