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Obedience
- Thread starter ONENESS
- Start date
Yes we must! Now, how do you define the gospel? Paul said the gospel HE preached was that Jesus died, was buried and raised again (1 Cor 15). Paul said if we believed we would be saved (Acts 16:31) and Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not baptize, showing that baptism is not part of the gospel (1 Cor 1:17).
So as I Have already stated, we must obey the gospel and that simply means we must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is the command we must obey. That is all we must do!
What causes the change? No man can change his heart enough to have God accept Him. We change our mind and accept Christ and then HE changes our heart. The fruits of repentance, the 'changed life' comes from the Spirit of God, not from ourself.
Repentance is NOT a lifestyle change. It is what leads us to a lifestyle change. Our lives change when the Spirit of God indwells us. We then become new creatures in Christ and only when we walk in the Spirit will our life reflect that we have repented. It is NOT reflecting what WE have done by repenting but rather what the Spirit is doing THROUGH us because we repented and turned to Him.
You have to IN Christ to be a new creation! You can't get rid of the old UNTIL the new comes!
There are no steps to salvation. Man can do nothing save believe and allow God to do the rest.
~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]OK, What about holliness? Do you have to be holy to make heaven? What about foregivness? Do you have to forgive those who have done you wrong to go to heaven?
The bible is emphatic that we must foregive those who have done us wrong in order to receive forgivness (Mat 6:15)
The bible is emphatic that we must try to be holy and if we don't we do not get to see Jesus. (Heb 12:14)
There are certain scriptures that we must be obedient to in order to be saved.
God bless
The above is Lorelei's question.
Yes you have to be holy to enter heaven. The question is: "How holy?" The answer is: "As holy as God is holy." Are you as holy as God? Can you honestly say that? I can. I was declared holy and righteous in God's sight the day that Christ atoned for my sins, and by faith I appropriated his sacrifice to myself by accepting him as my Saviour. That was two years before I was baptized, and I have never spoken in tongues. And yet in God's sight I am as holy as He.
Back to Lorelei's point. Define the gospel Oneness. But do it without using the Book of Acts? Are you able to show any one of us how to be saved without using the Book of Acts? If not, then you believe in false gospel, another gospel, which Paul warns about in Galatians chapter one.
DHK
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
The problem with that interpretation is that the Hebrews (who are Christians) are commanded to "pursue holiness, without which no one will see God." Why then was the author of Hebrews commanding these folks to pursue something they needed to see God if they had already "appropriated" it once-for-all by previously accepting Christ as their Savior?
Oneness,
I will take that as meaning that you believe Holiness is part of the gospel? If so, how does one become Holy BEFORE receiving the Spirit and being covered by the blood? If a person CAN become holy without the blood of Christ, what is the blood needed for???
Let's look at the context of the passage you quote.
Holiness is not a part of the gospel that saves, it is something that Christ did for us.
~Lorelei
I will take that as meaning that you believe Holiness is part of the gospel? If so, how does one become Holy BEFORE receiving the Spirit and being covered by the blood? If a person CAN become holy without the blood of Christ, what is the blood needed for???
Let's look at the context of the passage you quote.
If GOD doesn't MAKE You holy, then you have indeed missed the grace of God. This same book has already told us at least three times that GOD made us holy.
So, holiness IS required to get to heaven, however, one can only be MADE HOLY by the blood of Christ. So, you have to be saved before you can be made holy. And as the Word says, we have been made holy, once for all.
Holiness is not a part of the gospel that saves, it is something that Christ did for us.
~Lorelei
There is no problem with it at all. I am declared both righteous and holy in God's eyes at the point of salvation. God gave me eternal life. Eternal by its very definition means without end, going on forever and ever. If it should end at anytime, then it would no longer be eternal but only temporary and God would be found to be a liar.
However the act of becoming holy on a personal basis continues on. It is a process called sanctification. One will never be entirely sanctified (sinless) until they reach heaven. Romans 8:29 speaks to the Christian who is to be conformed to the image of Christ. That is a process of sanctification. It is a part of our daily lives, and our goal. It has absolutely nothing to do with our salvation. Salvation is by the grace of God through faith alone. It is a one time act--not a process.
It is the gift of God. It cannot be worked for. God gave it to me, as he gave me eternal life. He made me perfectly holy that day, in His eyes.
That is my standing before him.
DHK
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Actually, Eternal Life is in Christ so it never ends since Christ is Eternal. However, our possession of this life will end if we don't abide in Him. (John 15:5-6; Romans 11:20-22)
Also eternal by it's very definition has no beginning either, yet none of us had possession of this life from eternity. We began to possess it (in Him) here in time when we were first "saved" (grafted into the Vine).
Actually, salvation is a process with a beginning, middle, and ending. "Pursuing holiness" so that we may "see God" is a major characteristic of this process. Sanctification and salvation cannot be separated.
But it can be lost or cast aside.
And you presently have eternal life only if you are abiding in Christ.
Yet we're still required to pursue holiness without which we will not see God. If we don't pursue holiness and indeed turn from it, we most certainly will not have a perfectly holy standing before God on that Day.
__________________________________________________Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi Oneness, long time no see (so-to-speak) Hi Lorelie, your back too I see. Hope you are both well.
Couple things. For obedience to have a role in salvation it would have to be PERFECT Obedience. Only perfection has a place with a Holy God. Now, as for me, my obedience is not perfect. Oneness, perhaps you can obey God to a perfect level, I can not and therefore for me obedience can not play a role in my salvation. Only a perfect sacrifice can save this imperfect man. Jesus provided the perfection for me because He knew I could not do it for myself. Knowing that I needed His perfection to be saved it is hard to see that he would require me to perfectly obey to remain saved. Again, to have a role in salvation, obtaining or retaining, obedience would have to be perfect on my part. So look at your Hebrews verse below with a couple surrounding verses. What we see is that Jesus grew into obedience, He, Jesus learned obedience? - wow wild huh? He, Jesus perfected obedience because NNE on earth could be perfectly obedient to a Holy God. He became OUR obedience by His perfect obedience. One who trusts Christ's death and resurrection for his salvation wears the obedience of Christ like a robe. We, believers, that is, are those that "obey" in this sense. Read Lorelie's post with mine for a complete picture.
I wrote this on the fly so I may need to further explain myself tomorrow as sometimes what's in my mind and heart gets lost on the way to my hands.
Hebrews 5: (NASB)
7In the days of His flesh, (S)He offered up both prayers and supplications with (T)loud crying and tears to the One (U)able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His (V)piety.
8Although He was (W)a Son, He learned (X)obedience from the things which He suffered.
9And having been made (Y)perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10being designated by God as (Z)a high priest according to (AA)the order of Melchizedek.
In Christ,
Brian
Brian;
Perhaps you are not getting replies because they cannot refute it so it is easier to ignore it?
I don't know. I DO know this. Obedience is not to EARN salvation, it is to EARN rewards in the coming Kingdom Age. The Scriptures are full of this truth. Sadly, they who rebel at it, do so because their flesh wants the easier softer way. Not saying that is good or bad, it is just the way we fallen/redeemed humans are. Until the fullness of our redemption appears, our bodies and our carnal minds will seek out our own way, for it is comfortable. This is why we MUST rely on the empowering of the Holy Spirit to OBEY Christ. And what does He command us to do? Be perfect as God is perfect. Love one another, and GO tell the world, and make disciples. Will we lose our salvation if we do not? Nope. But we can LOSE our place in the coming Kingdom Age. By "fulness" I mean the redemption of our bodies when Christ appears the second time.
You have asked why you get no replies. I think they just can't say ought against what you so eloquently have stated.
In HIS service;
Jim
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
That's funny coming from you, since you seem to have ignored my response to your post the other day. Can you not refute it?
I addressed all of these assertions in my response to you (pg. 2 of this thread, Feb 22 at 9:27 PM). Now do you care to respond to my post?
Taking that view you make Christ a liar. He said: "I give unto you eternal life, and you shall never perish."
"Verily verily I say unto you he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life."
--Notice the present tense of these verbs. We (who believe) already have eternal life. It is a gift (Eph.2:8,9; Rom.6:23), already given to us at the time of salvation. It can never be taken away, or lost, or forfeited, etc. It is the gift of God. If it ended in any way God would be lying--which you imply that he does.
There is no IF in salvation. Salvation is not conditional. The believer does abide in Christ, and Christ in him. That is a statement of fact. Christ is the vine, and we ARE the branches. That is a statement of fact. There is no IF. Salvation is not conditional. It is not of works (Eph.2:8,9) says that very plainly--not of works lest any man should boast
You make salvation conditional upon one's works contradicting the Bible which plainly says otherwise.
You are playing with semantics here. Both everlasting and eternal are used interchangeably. Everlasting technically does have a starting point and then continues on to eternity. If you want me to dig up all the references that use the word everlasting instead of eternal, I will be glad to do so. There is an abundance of them also. God has given us everlasting life. It comes at the point of salvation, when one trusts Christ.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
--Surely you didn't forget this verse did you? He gave..that we might have (present tense) everlasting life.
You have no Biblical support for this. A saved person already has holiness. He can't enter into heaven without it. It does not teach that he must pursue it to enter into heaven, but possess it to enter into heaven. Holiness is a state that is given at the time of salvation. It is also a way of life that one must pursue throughout his lifetime--to be conformed to be like him, who was perfectly holy--Jesus Christ. We will never reach that goal on this earth. Read 1John 1:8,10. If you think that you can attain perfect holiness you deceive yourself and make Christ a liar. That is what you are inferring here.
And thus you have made Christ a liar, and redefined the word eternal, making it mean the very opposite--temporary. Words have meanings for a reason.
I have eternal life, and I am abiding in Christ. Christ gave me eternal life, and I am in Him; and He in me. Those are the facts. There are no ifs. Salvation is of the grace of God. There are no ifs involved. For by grace are ye saved through faith; not if you have works, but rather NOT by works.
The Christian is required to pursue holiness which he already has. He is put in a state of holiness which he will never lose. We are commanded to grow in grace, to become more holy. Christian growth, maturity is a life long process which takes time. It has nothing to do with salvation. There is no verse in the Bible that teaches that if a believer turns from the way of holiness he will lose his salvation.
DHK
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Right. If you presently "believe", you presently "have" eternal life. This is because we stand (present tense) by faith(Romans 11:20). If we don't continue in His goodness we will be cut off from His life (Romans 11:22).
I'm not implying that God is lying at all. There is plenty of Scriptural evidence that says we can forfeit salvation.
Actually, Scripture is full of conditional statements regarding salvation with plenty of "ifs". If I get a chance tonight I'll list several. (In fact, I've already listed some in a previous post on page 2 of this thread)
Here's one big "IF"--if you stop believing you are no longer abiding and thus no longer have(present tense) salvation. IF we don't continue in His goodness, we too can be cut off. (Romans 11:19-23)
Actually salvation is conditional on if we have works. There is plenty of Biblical support for this--see my post back on page 2 for just a few examples.
No I am not.
And who is playing with semantics?
As I mentioned above, our present tense "having" this life depends on our present tense "believing" in Christ.
Actually, there is plenty of Biblical support for this. You have just chosen to ignore it or explain it away. (Perhaps tonight I'll provide some examples)
It clearly says one must pursue holiness for without it one will not see God.
I haven't redefined anything. Eternal life is eternal because that life is in Christ. Christ's life is obviously eternal, and we must continue to abide in Him since He is the source of that Eternal life. If we cut ourselves off from Him through unbelief His eternal life remains--we just don't have access to it. It's not that complicated.
Sure there is--Hebrews 12:14.
If you don't pursue holiness, you won't see God.
The above is Lorelei's question.
Yes you have to be holy to enter heaven. The question is: "How holy?" The answer is: "As holy as God is holy." Are you as holy as God? Can you honestly say that? I can. I was declared holy and righteous in God's sight the day that Christ atoned for my sins, and by faith I appropriated his sacrifice to myself by accepting him as my Saviour. That was two years before I was baptized, and I have never spoken in tongues. And yet in God's sight I am as holy as He.
Back to Lorelei's point. Define the gospel Oneness. But do it without using the Book of Acts? Are you able to show any one of us how to be saved without using the Book of Acts? If not, then you believe in false gospel, another gospel, which Paul warns about in Galatians chapter one.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]
Ok sorry, I agreed with what Lorelie said. The Gospel is the the death, burial, and resurrection.
Yes, John 3:5. We must be born of the water and the spirit to enter the kingdom of God.
We must believe in Jesus Christ. John 3:16
We must believe and be baptized. Mark 16:16
We must believe in Jesus as the Scripture says. John 7:37-38.
Abide in Jesus. John 15
And there's more of course.
Thanks for asking.
If GOD doesn't MAKE You holy, then you have indeed missed the grace of God. This same book has already told us at least three times that GOD made us holy.
So, holiness IS required to get to heaven, however, one can only be MADE HOLY by the blood of Christ. So, you have to be saved before you can be made holy. And as the Word says, we have been made holy, once for all.
Holiness is not a part of the gospel that saves, it is something that Christ did for us.
~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]
Ok I will start by saying that yes, holliness is part of the Gospel. The Gospel is the Death, burial, and the ressurection of Christ. But we both know that there is more to the Gospel than that. That just sums it up.
example: When Christ was on Earth he taught certain things, That's part of the Gospel. His Life, his purpose, his will, etc. etc. etc. That is all part of it. Can we agree on that?
Jesus's blood is what makes us holy, no arguement there. But I'm sure you don't beleive that a person can go out in the world and conform to the world and call themselves holy.
Living holy is also something that we try to do. Not b/c it makes us any better than anyone else, but b/c it pleases God. He expects us to live a holy life style.
For example, a homosexual life style is "unholy". If a person falls under this catagory and remains in this state, even after one comes to God, he is unaccepted in the sight of God.
God bless
Posted by Jim
My point here as never been meant to say that we earn our salvation. So if anyone is getting that vibe from what I have posted please forgive me.
Believing in God doesn't even earn our salvation. Nothing we can do earns it. We are far to bad of a people to earn something so great. Thats why it's a gift from God. And that is why it is not of works. And that is why we cannot boast about our salvation.
Indeed, it is a gift from God, and what an awesome gift it is.
So, no matter what God has revealed to his people to do to be saved It definatly is Grace.
Thanks, God bless..
Jim how are ya? I just learned something from you. All jokes aside, I'm not being sarcastic either. So thank you.
My point here as never been meant to say that we earn our salvation. So if anyone is getting that vibe from what I have posted please forgive me.
Believing in God doesn't even earn our salvation. Nothing we can do earns it. We are far to bad of a people to earn something so great. Thats why it's a gift from God. And that is why it is not of works. And that is why we cannot boast about our salvation.
Indeed, it is a gift from God, and what an awesome gift it is.
So, no matter what God has revealed to his people to do to be saved It definatly is Grace.
Thanks, God bless..
Originally posted by Briguy:
Hmmm, Are my posts too good or are they too bad to be responded to?
My post on page two was kind of controversial but no response at all. I just don't get it.
-Brian
I know the feeling Briguy. Kinda like you aren't important when you aren't on your own turf? Know what I mean Vern?
MEE