This is a question that I've been stuck on for a while, and not just because I don't particularly believe the idea.
Omnipresence is the idea that God is everywhere in the "hyper literal" sense. Literal could just mean in every city or something, but hyper literal leaves no room for the expressive. God exist whole in every square inch, every square centimeter, every Person, animal and grain of sand.
Aside from the fact that to me, this serves no purpose, I have also often wondered about where it is even presented in the Bible. The idea is quite complex, and actually finding it in a Bible that doesn't use modern terms... I'd expect a reference a few paragraphs long to be honest, not just four or five out of context verses, which is all I've been able to find.
Please, no accusations that this is part of God's soverienty. I'm tired of being called a heritic because I don't fall in line. Unless you'd like to explain why God needs to be on Pluto, where no man nor beast CAN live, in order to be master of your life. Or why does God have to be microscopic in order to rule the Universe?
Omnipresense, where is it?
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Darren, Apr 18, 2008.
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Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
Psalm 139:7-10 TNIV
Man has sent a satellite beyond the reaches of our solar system, why couldn’t God be there?
We don’t know why God created this vast universe.
I think it was Carl Sagan who said, “it seems like such a waste”.
But we can be assured that it was created with purpose and even God is there.
Omnipresence is related to omnipotence and works hand-in-hand with the doctrine of creation.
God made it all and has intimate knowledge of its workings.
He even knows the number of hairs on your head (Matt 10:30).
Can anything happen without God being aware?
It's assuring that God is there in the details.
He knows the begining from the end.
And because of that, we can trust him with everything that happens in our lives.
We may not understand it, but we can trust him!
Rob -
Unless you'd also like to explain why, if God is Omniscient and Omnipotent and created an infinite universe in six days, He absolutely must also be Omnipresent to have any authority or worth while knowledge.
I know I sound harsh, but I always get arguements like that, trying to show how one thing leads to another, when the points given are actually exclusive.
Please tell me this was a mistake. Matthew 10:30 is NOT a verse about God's knowledge in general. It's not even a verse about His knowledge at all. Not many people know that of course:
29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny[d]? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
Full context is actualy Matthew 10, the whole chapter, and is about Jesus sending out the 12 apostles.
The first time I was willing to give you the benifit of the doubt, because context didn't go against you, but here... are you reading your passages in full, or just looking for good sounding verses. I warn you, I will catch you at that. -
The verses that Deacon gave you illustrate how this was true to David. Other verses would include stuff like God knowing us in the womb before we were born, knowing the numbers of hairs on our heads, knowing when a bird dies. These things are true.
What exactly is it you disagree with? -
It's a side issue I suppose in the end. You see I have an serious objection to slapping extra beliefs on the Bible, especially non sense ones like this, that barely make sense.
If it's true or not itself, makes little difference to the meaning of things at the moment, but to me, if it is wrong, seeing that it is a universally accepted idea, than maybe other so called "foundational doctines" need to be examined.
I read the Bible and see it as not a book for the faint of heart nor the blind believer. I see hundreds of examples of God and his followers MOCKING the blind faith many have in wooden gods. When the true God is real and demonstrates His existence to us.
With all the division of the Chruch, maybe its time we took a look at what our founding beliefs are, and if they're valid by the Bible.
I call myself a Baptist because I believe in interpreting the Bible as it is given to us, and attaching nothing more, and taking nothing away. I just have a problem with believing that most Baptist really do that.
My point:
If a doctrine is wrong, it should be dropped from doctrine. Is this one wrong? -
But your straining over a gnat in your definition of the doctrine. When I say God is omnipresent I mean he is always with me. When I say he is omniscient I mean he knows everything. I am not making statements about what percent of his present is in every square inch of air in a room or something like that. Your not really arguing over doctrine your arguing over semantics.
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Why are you trying to limit God?
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Here's the question, for those of you who weren't really paying attention (seems a couple of you), is the doctrine of Omnipresence, as discribed in my first post, a false and or extra unnecessary doctrine?
Yes, this represents only the tip of the ice berg of my questions on normal doctrine, but for now, since the rest of them are BIG issues, lets just examine this one. Maybe if I'm wrong, I'll have to examine again common doctrine and fall back in line. I doubt I'm wrong though.
If we can't examine a simple doctrine like this, no wonder there are so many problems with fundimental ones. Imagine: what would happen, if when any doctrine was found to be dubious, it was called into consideration, and eventually dropped?
This is a test. Can we examine ONE point and come to a conclusion? -
:wavey: I won't. -
I see you've made several personal observations that I disagree with but you are entitled to have. But I see no place where you proven the common understanding or its doctorine to be incorrect.
What is your belief regarding a spirit? Where do they exist and do we comprehend their limitations if they have any? What is the purpose of Angels and do each of them communicate continually with God? Where does the soul go immediately after death?
Yes, I believe there are mysteries in this universe that we won't fully comprehend until the by and by, but our lack of understanding does not make them any less true or real.
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
Why is it hard to believe it did it all for His name sake? -
God is really big. Think of me over my model trainset. Everything is small, every detail is within my point of view, right? No. There are still things around corners, in shadow, behind trees that I can't see. It's not like that with Him. He can be on all sides of the table at the same time, and even under it. That's how I thinkit is with God... He really can see all of it.
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I say because it is his universe and he cares. Not only is the earth the Lords but also the fullness there of…
Perhaps I just don't get your question??? -
He is saying that with so much doctrinal differences, perhaps we need to reconsider everything, take nothing for granted.
I agree.
However, it seems that he wants to throw out certain doctrines just because he doesn't understand them, such as this one.
On that I strongly disagree.
He has shown no reason whatsoever to throw out this doctrine.
Anyone who would limit God's omnipresence IS limiting God's power from that mans perspective.
Of course God can't really be limited.
But the more important fact about this is it seems that because this person can't understand the omnipresence of God, he has a hard time believing it.
I do not understand heaven.
I believe in it.
I do not understand God's love.
I believe in it.
There are many aspects of God that mortal man can't understand.
But to lower God to a god that we can understand is to fashion a god after our own image. -
Um... not sure where YOU are going. LEBUICK
All I have to say is, given that it is not in the Bible, it's unnecessary, it isn't logical and it doesn't make sense, therefore, God is not Omnipresent. Do we agree?
It is enough that our God is with us. I'm not worried about Him being on Mars. I'm worried about Him being with my mom whilst she goes though cancer, for instance. But the Bible tells me He is with His servants, so I have no fear, for I know His hand is with her, whatever He allows to happen, I know is for the best. I know it's a purpose that I'll have a hard time grasping, at least for the time, but I'll give it time.
Happy to answer your questions though:
As to, are they in constant communication with God... the scripture seems clear that they are separate entities from God, and that they can even fall from Him, so I suppose they have a relationship with Him similar, at least in part, to our own. Only difference is, they can see Him.
That was fun. Anymore questions?
I'm worried now. What are YOU getting at.
You are confusing me. -
To Dale-c
I think maybe I do.
He is saying that with so much doctrinal differences, perhaps we need to reconsider everything, take nothing for granted.
Yes, thankyou, does this really need to be so hard?
Again, thankyou. I'll put that in big letters so people can see it.
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Jehovah's witness doctrine?
I refer you to Jeremiah 23:24- 'Do not I fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord'
John Wesley rightly said, "Nay, and we cannot believe the omnipotence of God, unless we believe his omnipresence; for, seeing, as was observed before, nothing can act where it is not, -- if there were any space where God was not present, he would not be able to do anything there. Therefore, to deny the omnipresence of God implies, likewise, the denial of his omnipotence. To set bounds to the one is undoubtedly to set bounds to the other also."
That being said, why are we allowing Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine to be discussed here? Denying the omnipresence of God is a JW fundamental. -
1When Jesus had finished saying all this in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2There a centurion's servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this, 5because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue." 6So Jesus went with them.
He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." 9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." 10Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.
But moreover, the Jewish name for God was indeed, Jehovah. So agreeing with Jehovahs witnesses does not mean I am wrong. Did you know Catholics think lieing is bad... so do I. Did you know Jews think murder is wrong? Yep, I agree, it is. Did you know Satan believes there is a God? He believes and he shudders. And so he should, because he's right, there is a God and that God will judge him.
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The OP sounds like a potato bug trying to explain what a human is. Face it, there is only ONE person who CAN be omnipresent, and that is God. If God CAN'T be omnipresent, He's not God. Seems simple enough to me. -
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