There is a significant difference between the vernacular of a language's literary form and it's common everyday speech. The KJV was not written in the language of privately spoken 17th century English, but rather composed in the style of published English (actually, more like 16th century).
Admittedly, there have been some versions that attempt to simulate 'street' language but they are decidedly non-literary publications; they are not translations, nor even genuine paraphrases.
On Bibles
Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Ryan.Samples, Sep 14, 2012.
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Hey Ya'll...
Just want to drop a note in here to say that I haven't "backed out" of the discussion....just been unable to take the time the last few days. It is time consuming for me to do this sometimes because I am not a very prolific typist. One of those "eye/brain-glazing" posts like Logos regularly puts in here would take me H O U R S to do. (plus I'll admit I'm nowhere NEAR that smart as far as book-learnin' goes...I just have "heart" knowledge:thumbsup::laugh:)In any case I've just had to back off the last few days...had a sick wife and other stuff going on. We'd appreciate your prayers asking God to meet certain needs and lead us here. I just don't want anyone thinking I chickened out:smilewinkgrin:.
By the way Ktn4eg...piss is a perfectly good old english BIBLE word that has not changed in meaning in the last 400 years. As such,we should not be afraid to use it as it is NOT a curse word inspite of the fact that some have "adopted" it as a slang expression. Like I have said before...spelling corrections aside(and thank God for them), english is a wonderful God-given language for which I am very thankful (since it is the only one I speak or read)...BUT...like everything else (including Bibles) in this world it is being steadily perverted and corrupted as we approach the culmination of human history in this fallen world. The KJV is just fine and needs no improvement (in my opinion). I haven't seen a thing with or in the new "Bibles" that changes my mind. Let no man think that Satan will leave the Word of the living God alone. He has been perverting/changing/corrupting it since the garden of Eden and he is still trying to do the same in our day. OK...I'm done for now!:type:
Bro.Greg -
Ah...the common man!!!
That said...I would definitely feel comfortable saying that even the common or street language of that (16th,17th century) was/is far more refined than the equivalent in our day. We have definitely gotten worse...not better. Slang talk is much more prevalent in our day(in my opinion).
It is gratifying to me that our God went to great measures to make sure that His precious and Holy Word was/is available in the most prevalent and commonly accepted languages of whatever generation would need to be able to read them...be it (in general) english/spanish/french/german/russian/chinese/indian/arabic,etc., etc. of our day or the koine Greek/Hebrew (and possibly Aramaic) of the early church days and mostly Hebrew of the days prior to Christ's virgin birth. Thank God for His Word!!!! I just believe it to be the KJV (for english-speaking people). I'm just a "common" kinda guy with a good dictionary:laugh:
Bro.Greg:type: (retiring back to my cave now!) -
God to Moses/Abraham though? -
Your dictionary better be pre-1833 to access your needs. -
But the specific key is the prefix "re-" (as in "rewording"); which implies that the text had previously been stated. The Living Bible is a genuine paraphrase; Ken Taylor acknowledged that he began with the ASV text as his base (not Hebrew, or Greek). His goal was to clarify the Bible for his children. I feel that unless the NIV can be shown to be a direct "rehash", a "summary", or further "interpretation" of a pre-existing English text then it is not equitable to speak of it as a paraphrase while at the same time neglecting other original versions. -
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What I mean is.....
Bro.Greg:praying: -
As a layman, with much to learn, I come here to grow in God's word. Often to read both sides of various debates to help understand the issues. To test what I "think" I know vs the TRUTH. There's a big difference, IMO between "thinking" and conviction. Only the Holy Spirit can change the latter. Well voiced opinions of others can help change the former.
As with the people in my church, I'm slowing learning which ones I can turn to and which ones I can't. Which ones I can ask a question or make a comment without the dread of them playing games with with my words. There's one at church I won't ask the time of day. Even a simple question like that is enough for him to make sure I'm aware of his superiority in all matters, including the time of day. He may well be superior. Many/most folks are in one way or another, as I look at how insignificant my life is in the big picture. However, he should let me come to that recognition rather than pounding on me to whip me into saluting his status. What he doesn't recognize is that I can't see his heart because his chest is puffed out so far.
Here, it grieves me deeply :tear: when professing Christians (general comment not directed to any individual poster) feel they can resort using terms such as "stupid", "hypocrite", "fool" and other ways to demean others. Not so much for myself, as this old skin has gotten pretty thick over the years. But, for those new in Christ seeking to grow in wisdom and knowledge. How does it help our new brothers and sisters if we resort to the tactics of the world? What does it tell them when they are to know us by the fruits we bear? -
1769 Oxford KJV
There are actual ten to twenty or more varying editions of the KJV in print today. None of them are 100% identical to the 1769 Oxford edition of the KJV.
The 1769 Oxford KJV edition had "LORD" [Jehovah] in 75 or so places where a typical Oxford or Cambridge KJV edition today has "Lord" [Adonai]. Some present KJV editions may have "LORD" in a few of the places.
The 1769 Oxford KJV still had a number of non-standard English spellings that later KJV editions changed.
The 1769 Oxford also still had a character shaped like "f" for a long "s" so that "sin" was printed as "fin", "wise" was printed the same as "wife," etc, and those thousands of "f" for a long "s" were not changed until after 1810.
The 1769 Oxford KJV that I examined has "camels' furniture" (Gen. 32:34), "priest's custom" (1 Sam. 2:13) where the 1873 Cambridge corrected it to "priests' custom", no apostrophe at 2 Kings 5:17 [two mules burden], Genesis 31:23 [seven days journey],
Here are some examples of renderings in the 1769 Oxford KJV up to the book of Psalms that are not likely in any present KJV:
"the Lord" (Gen. 30:30) instead of "the LORD"
"thy progenitors" (Gen. 49:26) instead of "my progenitors"
"Zithri" (Exod. 6:21) instead of "Zichri" [printing error that remained in Oxford and Cambridge KJV editions over 100 years]
"LORD God" (Exod. 23:17) instead of "Lord GOD"
"brakedst" (Deut. 10:2) instead of "brakest"
"thy tithe" (Deut. 12:17) instead of "the tithe"
"thy earth" (Deut. 12:19) instead of "the earth"
"the widow's (Deut. 24:17 instead of "a widow's"
"Beer-sheba, Sheba" (Josh. 19:2) instead of "Beer-sheba, or Sheba" or "Beer-sheba, and Sheba"
"children of Gilead" (Jud. 11:7) instead of "elders of Gilead"
"all the coast" (Jud. 19:29) instead of "all the coasts"
"in a straight" (1 Sam. 13:6) instead of "in a strait"
"O LORD God" (2 Sam. 7:18) instead of "O Lord GOD"
"God" (2 Sam. 12:22) instead of "GOD" [likely first corrected in 1829 Oxford]
"whom God alone" (1 Chron. 29:1) instead of "whom alone God"
"on the pillars" (2 Chron. 4:12) instead of "on the top of the pillars"
"thy companions" (Job 41:6) instead of "the companions"
"unto me" (Ps. 18:47) instead of "under me"
"my foot" (Ps. 31:8) instead of "my feet"
"in the presence" (Ps. 68:2) instead of "at the presence"
"part" (ps. 78:66) instead of "parts"
"most high" (Ps. 91:1) instead of "most High" or "Most High"
"most high" (Ps. 91:9) instead of "most High" or "Most High"
"When there were" (Ps. 105:12) instead of "When they were"
"gates of iron" (Ps. 107:16) instead of "bars of iron"
"suffereth not not" (Ps. 107:38) instead of "suffereth not"
"O God the LORD" (Ps. 140:7) instead of "O GOD the Lord"
"O GOD the LORD" (Ps. 141:8) instead of "O GOD the Lord"
Without a higher standard or authority in the preserved Scriptures in the original languages, editors or printers could not have made a good number of corrections to the 1611 edition, and they could not detect and correct later errors introduced by printers. -
Just a BRIEF comment..
Bro.Logos...I am somewhat impressed by your apparent level of knowledge about these matters, BUT as I previously stated, my mind and my eyes tend to "glaze" over when I see these long, protracted posts that you and others in here tend to respond with. I mean you no disrespect. Let me apologize NOW if it seems that way. I wish I had a mind that works that way and could absorb and retain that much information in a coherent manner....but I don't...and that kind of thing doesn't really "speak" to me. 1 Cor.8:1 does state that "knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth." While I don't recall detecting any particular air of malice in your lengthy posts, I do not personally detect the sense of humility that should be characteristic of us ALL as we seek to exchange ideas and information by the grace of God. My position is one of faith. I do want it to be an "informed" faith that is supported by facts. That is one reason why I read and study the things I do. I just pray that we would all stay HUMBLE as we say and do what we say and do...in here in the BB fellowship...and beyond.
Now...That said...I am aware that there are numerous different published editions of the KJV in print today. The one I use most often is an Oxford edition of the old Scofield Reference or "Study System" as it calls itself. I have been told that it generally follows the readings of the 1769 edition. In any case...the only things I have found in it that might make me feel "uncomfortable" (if at all) would be some of Dr. Scofield's notes (which are not inspired!) I haven't done any in-depth verse by verse comparisons to establish that as an irrefutable fact and don't know when I'll ever get the personal time to pursue doing so. I have asked God to protect and lead me and show me what is and isn't true (for HIS sake,honor and glory) and have left that matter in His hands where it is safest. I do, however, read with interest, information about such things as time allows. Like I said...I do respect your level of knowledge and what it must have taken you to acquire it...but I do sometimes feel overwhelmed by that much information all at once. Perhaps you should NOT attempt to be so "exhaustive" everytime you post. I'll ask you this...... in light of what you have said in reference to the 1769 edition...in your opinion....what IS the most common and frequently published edition of the KJV TODAY...and I'll even ask you to tell me...IN YOUR OPINION...which one is THE BEST?? (KJV ONLY) :thumbsup: (since that is the one I'm discussing exclusively.
Bro.Greg -
Most of its length was actually listing specific examples of where the 1769 Oxford differs from today's varying KJV editions.
I could probably have listed over 200 examples if I listed all the ones that could be found in my 400 pages of differences in KJV editions that I have compiled. -
Although the publisher asserts that no changes were made to Scofield's notes, there are actually 50 or more differences in the text of the KJV edition between the Scofield Reference Bible [more typical Oxford KJV text] and the Scofield Study Bible [more typical Cambridge KJV text--likely Concord edition].
Most of the differences involve the spelling of proper names with Cambridge going back to 1611 spellings instead of the 1769 Oxford spellings. -
At least in the 1900's in America, many of the KJV editions seem to have been based on a more typical Oxford KJV text although there were some some variations from publisher to publisher.
Because the American Bible Society printed larger quantities of the KJV than any other publisher at times, it could have been the most common KJV edition, especially in the 1800's.
Today in America there seems to be more Cambridge based editions of the KJV than in the past [some based on a Cambridge Concord edition and some on a Cambridge Pitt Minion edition]. Sometimes they still have a mixture of readings.
Some Zondervan and Hendrickson KJV editions are based on the 1873 Cambridge edition of Scrivener, that has a large number of differences from other typical KJV editions. -
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Anyway...I am sorry about that!
bro.Greg -
About your List...
bro.Greg -
Briefly...my answer is...
Bro.Greg:flower: (have a nice day Bro.Rippon)
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