Some do.
Besides the verse says that unto them was the keeping of the Word, obviously that means the OT.
HankD
On whose authority did Luther remove the Apocrypha?
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Matt Black, Jan 10, 2005.
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church mouse guy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
So aside from "Jerome didn't like them" and the (anti-Christian) Jewish Council of Jamnia removed them, what authority is there to remove the DCs?
Yours in Christ
Matt -
church mouse guy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The main authority is that the Jews do not consider them sacred and the Jews do not consider them part of the Hebrew Scripture, Matt. This is where the Catholic Church went out on a limb, as usual. Catholicism, as you know, is what is called a merit theology. You have to perform specified works in order to be saved. Catholicism in the minds of theologians such as R.C. Sproul is anti-Christian.
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Sproul is a Catholic?!
Yours in Christ
Matt -
church mouse guy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Where did I go wrong? I forgot that I was talking to a lawyer--LOL. Sproul is a Presbyterian, isn't he?
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Yes, a 'nice' Calvinist, IMNSVHO!
Yours in Christ
Matt -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Yours in Christ
Matt -
church mouse guy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Your points do not hold water. We have already established that the Catholics did not take those books until 1546, after Luther was already condemned to death by the Pope I think. So Luther did not remove anything.
Secondly, the Jews do not today recognize the books that you mention nor did they at Jamnia, which you have already discussed. The Jewish canon was closed before Christ.
You are reaching into the cults and the higher critics for points that are not involved in the Jewish canon. As has been pointed out, Paul says in Romans that the Jews were given what is now called the Hebrew Scripture or Old Testament. If you believe the Catholics, fine, but you are not going to persuade me to join the Catholics on this issue. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I have already said that post-Jamnia and contemporary Judaism reject the DCs - that was one of the points of Jamnia. But pre-Jamnia Judaism of Jesus' day did accept them
Yours in Christ
Matt -
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Some Orthodox do use a couple extra books more than the Roman Catholics. But both the Orthodox and Catholics agree that Christians have always considered the Apocrypha to be scripture from the time of the apostles. This refutes the claim that it was added by the Roman Catholics in the 1500s.
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church mouse guy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Wasn't it Hank who pointed out that Paul says in Romans that the Jews were entrusted with the Oracles of God? Therefore, they alone can determine the Hebrew Scripture, or the Old Testament. That fact that the Jews deny the New Testament is beside the point. What is correct is that the Jews establish what books belong in the Old Testament. The Pope can hardly say in 1546 that books are now going to be added to the Old Testament. The Pope never had that authority over the Hebrew Scripture. The Catholic Church is in error as well as the Orthodox Church on this question. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
And you know this and have authority to say it how?
Yours in Christ
Matt -
church mouse guy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Don't be silly. Look at the case against you. Hank first posted it:
Romans 3:1 (KJV) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Therefore, the Pope and the Eastern Orthodox never had any authority to amend the Hebrew Scriptures! -
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church mouse guy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Why quote the cults--the Mormons and Jehovah's False Witnesses? You have the burden of proof. Long ago I quoted several lines of reasoning based upon ancient history. You have given no Scripture whatsoever. If the Jews cannot decide what books are sacred and what are not, how can the Pope in 1546 and some of the Eastern Orthodox and Matt decide today?
Romans 3:1 (KJV) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
But the Jews prior to Jamnia did accept the DCs...so the question is: at which point in the Jewish timeline does one 'dip in' and treat their rulings as authoritative on the OT canon - pre-Jamnia or post-?
Yours in Christ
Matt -
church mouse guy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
It has already been established that the Jewish canon was closed at least 150 years before the birth of Jesus and maybe 400 years before the birth of Jesus. It also has been established that the meeting of Jamnia did not do anything one way or another about the Jewish canon. In fact, scholars say that Jamnia did not deal with the question of acceptance of new books.
Also, the Jews themselves noted that "the voice of God had ceased to speak directly" from the 4th century BC onward.
The books that you mention, Matt, were never part of the Jewish canon. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Where has "it already been established"? Jamnia did not deal in 'new books', it removed existing ones which were adhered to by the minim from whom the post-Temple Jews wished to distance themselves
Yours in Christ
Matt
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