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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by fatbacker, Oct 12, 2005.

  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I'm still at a loss as to find any scripture that supprts the idea that a person can lose his/her salvation. Lose grace, yes. Lose blessings, yes. Lose favor, yes. Lose salvation, no.
     
  2. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I'm still at a loss as to find any scripture that supprts the idea that a person can lose his/her salvation. Lose grace, yes. Lose blessings, yes. Lose favor, yes. Lose salvation, no. </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely

    If one can lose salvation by works then he never had it by faith.

    1 Peter 1
    1 John 5:11-13
    John 10
     
  3. natters

    natters New Member

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    John, who do you think are the branches cast off and burned in John 15, and what does that mean?

    What of the servant who was completely forgiven, then later has his forgiveness revoked in Matt 18:23-35
     
  4. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    JohnV where can you lose grace or favor ?

    [ October 17, 2005, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Roguelet ]
     
  5. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    If this is an analogy for salvation, then it means that salvation is not based on faith, but by works. If, however, it is an analogy for no longer being permitted to bear fruit, then it fits.
    Forgiveness is a different topic from salvation. Forgineness being revoked means forgiveness being revoked, not salvation being revoked.
     
  6. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    There are several examples of believers not being blessed with grace, favor, or blessing because of their actions. The Prodigal Son parable is a good example of how the son lost the blessings of his father when he chose to do his own thing. But the prodigal son never lost his salvation. In fact, the father in the story went out to meet the son before he even got back to the doorway.
     
  7. natters

    natters New Member

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    If this is an analogy for salvation, then it means that salvation is not based on faith, but by works. If, however, it is an analogy for no longer being permitted to bear fruit, then it fits.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Um, what? :confused:

    Forgiveness is a different topic from salvation. Forgineness being revoked means forgiveness being revoked, not salvation being revoked.
    </font>[/QUOTE]So how does one have salvation, yet does not have their sins forgiven?
     
  8. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    The analogy is about bearing fruit, not salvation.
    Forgiveness is contingent upon repentance. Salvation is contingent upon a gift being given without requisite.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    When written this posts wasn't on this site,
    now that i've got time to post my writing, Bro. natters'
    post is on this site.

    I'm going to refute what Bro. Natters said elsewhere why
    we might fall from grace. Frankly, i can't see how if God gives
    His grace to us, we can 'fall from grace'. But anyway, I first
    will mention several passages in general.

    2 Peter Chapter 2 is about 'false prophets among the people'.
    These are NOT Christians. They may act like the people of God
    but they are NOT the people of God. 2 Peter Chapter 2 is about
    people who never got saved in the first place. OSAS cannot apply
    to these false prophets because OS = ONCE saved; these 2 Peter
    Chapter 2 people were ZERO saved :(

    Hebrews Chapte 10 is about deciding between salvation and
    contunued lostness. It tells what people do because they
    are saved and what they do becasue they never got saved.
    There is nothing in Hebrews Chapter 10 about what a saved
    person can do to get lost again.

    I reject all parables. Parables have much story, little doctrine.
    Parables appeal to the emotions, not the will, where the salvation
    decision is made. Don't ever base your doctrine on a parable;
    it is to easy to err doing so.


    natters on another venue speaking of how one might fall
    from grace and/or salvation:
    //"How" can happen several ways:

    1. //They can become again entangled
    in the pollution of sin (2 Pet 2:20).//
    generically refuted, see above


    2. // They can give themselves
    over to temptation (Luke 8:13).//


    3. // They can be cut off due to
    unfruitfulness (John 15:6, Matt 3:10).//

    "if a man abide not in me" describes a lost person, not a saved person.
    Trees get chopped down literally. Lost people will get chopped down
    spiritually. The saved will never be chopped down.

    4. // They could be a new Christian
    put in a position of authority, and because of pride fall in condemnation
    like Satan did (1 Tim 3:6)//
    If you ever pick a pastor, pick one who is already saved;
    if you ever ordain a new person to the pastorate, make sure
    they are already saved.

    5. // He could begin to hate his brother (1 John 3:15).//
    This speaks of someone who is a murder cause he hates his
    brother. Such a person never gets saved.


    6. // He could desire to go back to how they were before
    salvation (Luke 9:62, Heb 10:38-39).//
    generically refuted, see above


    7. // They could, after going forth, be choked by the cares and riches
    and pleasures of this life (Luke 8:14).//
    generically refuted, see above


    8. // They could choose not to forgive their brother (Matt 18:23-35).//
    generically refuted, see above


    9. // They could, after being sanctified, consider the blood of Christ
    unholy (Heb 10:29).//
    generically refuted, see above


    10. // I think these sorts of things are intertwined,
    and all manifestations of the same thing - breaking the covenant.//
    The new covenent is written on the heart.

    Jesus saves.
    Salvation has several components (they are past, present,
    and future to the saved person), they do not apply to an unsaved person:


    1. Justification - past - the initial salvation
    -Jesus provides justification salvation

    2. Scantification - present - the daily clensings
    - Jesus provides scantification salvation

    3. Glorification - future - final state of the saved in Christ
    - Jesus provides glorification salvation

    Jesus saves to the uttermost.
    Jesus doesn't save people halfway, but all the way.
    Eternal life that gets interrupted is NOT eternal life :(
     
  10. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    Johnv wrote
    Not sure i'd agree with you on that one neither would his brother ? Grace was totally shown to the prodigal son not only did he receive his inheritance early he also received these many blessings for doing wrong, if this isn't grace, blessings and forgiveness i don't know what is ..........


    1) Bring out the best robe and put it on him
    2) Put a ring on his hand, and sandals on his feet
    3) Kill the fatted calf in order to celebrate his return-- All of which serve to reinstate the son as a person of importance and authority
     
  11. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    I don't agree with you about 2 Peter 2:

    2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


    2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


    2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    *********************************************

    Really, what do you think it means to have "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?" The knowledge of Christ is used in the Bible to mean salvation as is to have "known the way of righteousness."

    Then this passage says that having been saved they are "again entangled therein, and overcome." To put it another way, they "turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
    The conclusion is "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" and "it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness."

    If this is not referring to salvation then what does the beginning and the latter end refer to? There is no before and after if they were not saved and then fell from grace. What does "the dog [is] turned to his own vomit again?" These describe a condition in which we sin, turn from our sinful ways (are saved) and then return to them salvation lost. However, God will forgive us if we repent and return to the strait and narrow. Like the Prodigal Son, we can come home and be welcomed back into God's grace.

    [ October 17, 2005, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: StraightAndNarrow ]
     
  12. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    There are several examples of believers not being blessed with grace, favor, or blessing because of their actions. The Prodigal Son parable is a good example of how the son lost the blessings of his father when he chose to do his own thing. But the prodigal son never lost his salvation. In fact, the father in the story went out to meet the son before he even got back to the doorway. </font>[/QUOTE]The Prodigal Son did lose his salvation but regained it when he returned to his father and repented. I believe that we are saved by grace so if you lose grace you lose salvation.
     
  13. natters

    natters New Member

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    And what happens to those who the one who does not bear fruit? He is cast off and is burned, unlike the others who are pruned to bring forth more fruit.

    That doesn't really answer my question. Are you saying it's possible to be saved and go to heaven, but not have your debt of sin forgiven and dealt with by Christ? Why then did Christ even bother with the crucifixion?
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    2 Peter Chapter 2 is about 'false prophets among the people'.
    These are NOT Christians. They may act like the people of God
    but they are NOT the people of God.
    There might be some argument in verse 18 that the discussion
    turns to people seduced by the 'false prophet'.
    I agree.
    The false prophet 'saves' the seduced person,
    Jesus does not save the seducted person. You can be
    lost from the 'salvation' of the false prophet, you cannot
    get lost after Jesus saves you.
     
  15. natters

    natters New Member

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    Ed, I agree that the chapter is talking largely about false prophets, but how does one "escape the pollutions of this world" and later are "again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" if one was never saved in the first place? How does one escape something one never leaves? How does one become "again entangled therein" in something they were never free from?

    The chapter goes on to say "the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" - what does "washed" mean, and how does one return to something they never left?
     
  16. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    Like Ed said all parables are stories you are not to build sound doctrine on them.

    Please natters and straightandnarrow please use scripture that doesn't have a parable in it. Since the parables have already been delt with !
     
  17. natters

    natters New Member

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    Sorry, but Jesus isn't going to use falsehood in a parable just to make a point.
     
  18. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

    No but you can't build doctrine on parables either.
     
  19. natters

    natters New Member

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    I can't build doctrine on truths in scripture that Jesus used to teach doctrine?
     
  20. Roguelet

    Roguelet Guest

     
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