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Once Upon a Deep Time, Long, Long Ago....

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by church mouse guy, May 13, 2019.

  1. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    1. Hinduism has one cycle of time of 4,320,000, with 1,000 cycles in a day in the life of Brahma with the same amount of time per night. Brahma was said to have lived 864,000,000,000 years.

    2. Rome and Greece had "Great Years" of about 36,000 years each.

    3. Christians such as Theophilus of Antioch 115-181 AD rejected Plato's assertion of 20,000,000 years from the Flood until the present and Egyptian Apollonius who said 155,625 years. Also, Pythagoras said there was a spontaneous production of all things.

    4. Irenaeus and Lactantius believed that Jesus would return when the world was 6,000 years old.

    From Australian David Green in Creation Magazine 1998. AiG on David Green: "Many claim that Genesis was based upon borrowed pagan ideas. In reality, the Genesis account of recent creation is in direct opposition to pagan long-age superstitions."

    The long story of long ages - creation.com

    Or

    The Long Story of Long Ages
     
  2. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Christians, that have understood the word of God, have always believed in a 6000 yearish old earth. Details here -

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  3. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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  4. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    Truly, even Lactantius said:

    Lactantius (c. 250 – c. 325) -

    "... [page 460] Plato and many others of the philosophers, since they were ignorant of the origin of all things, and of that primal period at which the world was made, said that many thousands of ages had passed since this beautiful arrangement of the world was completed; and in this they perhaps followed the Chaldeans [Babylonians], who, as Cicero has related in his first book respecting divination, [1] foolishly say [2] that they possess comprised in their memorials 470,000 years; in which matter, because they thought that they could not be convicted, they believed that they were at liberty [3] to speak falsely. But we, whom the holy Scriptures instruct to the knowledge of the truth, know the beginning and the end of the world, respecting which we will now speak in the end of our work, since we have explained respecting the beginning in the second book. Therefore let the philosophers, who enumerate thousands of ages from the beginning of the world, know that the six thousandth year is not yet completed, [page 460-461] and that when this number is completed the consumation must take place, and the condition of human affairs be remodelled for the better, the proof of which must first be related, that the matter itself may be plain. God completed the world and this admirable work of nature in the space of six days (as is contained in the secrets of holy Scripture), and consecrated the seventh day, on which He had rested for His works. But this is the Sabbath-day, which in the language of the Hebrews received its name from the number, [1] whence the seventh is the legitimate and complete number. For there are seven days, by the revolutions of which in order the circles of years are made up; and there are seven stars which do not set, and seven luminaries which are called planets, [2] whose differing and unequal movements are believed to cause the varieties of circumstances and times.

    Therefore, since all the works of God were completed in six days, the world must continue in its present state through six ages, that is, six thousand years. For the great day of God is limited by a circle of a thousand years, as the prophet shows, who says, [3] "In Thy sight, O Lord, a thousand years are as one day." And as God laboured during those six days in creating such great works, so His religion and truth must labour during these six thousand years, while wickedness prevails and bears rule. And again, since God, having finished His works, rested the seventh day and blessed it, at the end of the six thousandth year all wickedness must be abolished from the earth, and righteousness reign for a thousand years; and there must be tranquility and rest from the labours which the world now has long endured. We have often said that lesser things and things of small importance are figures and previous shadowings forth of great things; as this day of ours, which is bounded by the rising and the setting of the sun, is a representation [4] of that great day to which the circuit of a thousand years affixes it limits. [5] [page 461] ..." - Ante-Nicene Christian Library: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325.; Edited by the Rev. Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D., Volume XXI., The Works of Lactantius., Volume I. Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 38, George Street., MDCCCLXXI. (1871); Printed by Murray and Gibb, For T. & T. Clark, Edinburgh.; London: Hamilton, Adams and Co.; Dublin: John Robertson and Co.; New York: C. Scribner and Co. - Lactantius; Chap. XIV. - Of the first and last times of the world.; pages 460-461. - Ante-Nicene Christian Library
     
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  5. Chomper76

    Chomper76 Member

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    A 6000 year old Earth is crazy. It dates a global flood (ignoring that there is no physical evidence for such anyway) after pyramids were built in Egypt. So these pyramids survived the flood, magically showing no signs of water damage. Then somehow Noah and his family reproduced enough to so that more pyramids could be built within 20 years of the flood.

    Yeah... ok. Lol
     
  6. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    There is trouble with Egyptian dating. I think that those in favor of correcting the chronology are winning the scientific debate. Egyptian history is much shorter than previously thought.

    At any rate, the Genesis Flood was 4300 years ago. And you are correct that nothing survived the flood.
     
  7. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Active Member

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    No, it is scriptural, and the historically held position. See: How old is mankind, let's see if we can get a rough date.

    The other position, the 'old' earth, is the pagan position a noted by Lactantius, and I could even cite Julius Africanus, and many others, etc. See the link provided where it is documented.

    Not so. The pyramids (all of them, including the largest at Giza) were all built several hundred years after the flood. Egyptian chronology is notoriously exaggerated and erroneous.

    There is evidence all over, and if you fly alot, especially from California going east, or from southern states to northern, you will see the massive evidence left by the flood, but even if you do not fly, you can see the evidence in the ground itself, especially the massive 'bed' deposits, that are multi-state wide.

    Then one can consider the massive 'beds' of disarticulated bones, and graveyards, or dumping sites, all thrown together from differing habitats, and not only the 'beds' and the 'contents' of those 'beds', but also the position even of those creatures that are somewhat intact in localized areas, which are in the death-pose of drowning position, with their head all the way back, arched, mouth wide open gaping for air (and often if you read beside the bones in the museum, you will see a small plaque that reads, died in a 'local' flood, not realizing that where these bones came from, and the massive scale at which their 'local' flood had to have occured:





    Also the layering is continent wide (sandstone, coal, salt, etc), even stretching across continent (and sometimes many, many meters deep), such as the cretaceous chalk layer, as it is basically all one layer, from Texas, going east, to 'Dover' (England) to Australia, etc.

    Then you have the event stored in the Chinese language itself, 4500 years old.

    http://www.bibleetnombres.online.fr/genesis.pdf





    Then one can consider the flood histories of the many peoples from around the globe, sharing many similarities in their present oral retelling - Flood Legends From Around the World

    But, even before any of that, the Bible itself, in Genesis (and OT Job, Psalms, & NT; Jesus, Peter) speak of the global flood.

    No. The pyramids came after the flood.

    There is nothing 'magical' about a false conclusion based upon an incorrect starting point. They do not need to show signs of water damage, as they were built post-flood, not pre.

    The population growth curve is well established, and it was several hundred years after the flood that the Pyramids were built. There was no "Egypt" just after the flood. It was mostly under water, which was why it was a rich delta area later, as the Nile is a left over result of the geographical change that took place.

    I would laugh too at such a foolish scenario presented, but fortunately that is not the scenario presented, nor the evidence before us.. The evidence before us, is as overwhelming as the flood itself in all areas of research.

    You might want to consider on Egypt:

     
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  8. Chomper76

    Chomper76 Member

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    There is no evidence of a global flood, sorry. Global flood believers cannot explain how the flood paused long enough to deposit oceans worth of dry sea salt miles underneath the Praires, in several layers, and picked up again to deposit miles worth of sediment. Yet at the exact same time the flood deposited a bunch of shale in Ohio, and then just stopped.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Andromeda galaxy has been measured to be some 2.5 million light years away.
     
  10. Chomper76

    Chomper76 Member

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    A global flood nor YEC can explain layers upon layers of Cambrian fossils, such as in the Burgess Shale, yet never a single mammal found amongst them.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The fossil layers only show an order of what was buried where.
     
  12. Chomper76

    Chomper76 Member

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    And that order relates to time. The lower the layer, the longer ago it happened. That is why a Global Flood is nonsense. Otherwise we would see a greater mixing of life forms on the layer laid down by the flood rather that a record of fossils evolving. Especially amongst the YEC who believe man and dinosaur coexisted and perished during the flood.

    Fossilized Evolution And Speciation - Geography of Life
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ok. Provide the the locations, the rocks, dating methodes used for each assigned geological age, And reference source.
    May I sugest: McGraw‑Hill Science & Technology Encyclopedia
     
  14. Chomper76

    Chomper76 Member

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    You are perfectly capable of looking that up.

    May I ask what the point of this is other than a red herring that has little to do with not finding dinosaur fossils along side human fossils?

    The funny thing about creationists is that they always resort to constant demands for more and more proof. Why is that funny? They never provide evidence supporting their claims.

    I provided you a link describing a prediction made by a scientists regarding transitional fossils between fish and amphibians. How he predicted at what geologic age it must have been. Then he researched locations where that geologic age were being studied and found transitional fossils there.

    Creationists never provide testable hypotheses. They never then attempt to support and falsify hypotheses.

    They just believe in the face of no evidence of support and blindly reject the evidence falsifying their beliefs.
     
    #14 Chomper76, May 31, 2019
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It appears geological ages are contrived. Only one rock at one location is used date for each age. Potassium argon dating is one of the methods. (Air contains 1% Argon.)
    Any way, sedimentary rock is dated indirectly using the incursion of molten rock, and it is that igneous rock which is used to date the sedimentary rock setting a minimum date for that layer of sediment at that location.

    Any way, my point being only one sample at one location for each geological age. It appears more arbitrary than science.

    What are called the geological ages are the sediment layers of the global flood.
     
    #15 37818, Jun 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  16. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace Well-Known Member
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    Did the "TROLL" filter mis-function and let a big one in??
    Sure 'pears to have failed!!!:rolleyes:
     
  17. Chomper76

    Chomper76 Member

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    I'd suggest you look up the work of William Smith, a devout Christian, who while working for a canal digging company noticed fossils were only ever found at certain layers. He then went on to study and produce the first geologic map of England.

    That only one rock at one location is used to date a layer is complete nonsense and shows you have a complete lack of understanding of the scientific model. When claims are made about the age of a layer, other scientists independently study and attempt to verify or falsify the findings.

    A global flood cannot explain why fossils of the same species are only found in specific layers in distant areas and not found in other layers.

    What you are attacking about geologic layers completely ignores that it is used by oil and coal companies to determine where they will find resources they can extract to meet our energy needs. If geology was wrong, we would still be using horses as the means of transportation and burning trees to heat our homes.
     
    #17 Chomper76, Jun 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  18. Chomper76

    Chomper76 Member

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    So anyone who disagrees with you is a troll. Brilliant insight.
     
  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    One: Life’s Unexpected Explosion
     
  20. Chomper76

    Chomper76 Member

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    You are going to point to an article written by Wise? Really?

    Wise even admitted he treated his experience at Harvard as a Monopoly game playing the part of a paleontologist to get a degree.

    He also wrote this in his autobiography:

    "I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turned against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate."

    In other words, no matter how much evidence is shown, he will not change his position. That goes against the very definition of a scientist.

    Richard Dawkins put it well: "Poor Kurt Wise reminds me more of Winston Smith in 1984 - struggling desperately to believe that two plus two equals five if Big Brother says it does. Winston, however, was being tortured."

    If you hold a position that no amount of evidence could ever change your position, then please be honest and say so.
     
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