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Featured One call...or two

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    For more in depth discussion of Calling = click either klesis or Called = kletos)

    Calling (2821) (klesis - word study) means a call and was used for an invitation to a banquet. In the NT the word is used metaphorically of the call or invitation to come into the kingdom of God with all its privileges. Here "klesis" refers to the divine call by which Christians are introduced into the privileges of the gospel. God’s invitation (klesis) to man to accept the benefits of His salvation is what this calling is all about, particularly in the gospels. It is God’s first act in the application of redemption according to His eternal purpose (Ro 8:28). A distinction is made between God’s calling and men’s acceptance of it (Mt 20:16).

    Klesis - 11x in the NT - Rom. 11:29; 1 Co. 1:26; 7:20; Eph. 1:18; 4:1, 4; Phil. 3:14; 2 Thess. 1:11; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 3:1; 2 Pet. 1:10

    The called are those who have been summoned by God...called...(the following phrases are meant to be read as one long sentence which gives a Biblical statement regarding calling)...

    The called are those who have been summoned by God...called...

    according to His purpose (Romans 8:28-note)


    to salvation (Romans 8:30-note)


    saints by calling (1Cor 1:2)


    both Jews and Greeks (1Cor 1:24)


    having been called "with a holy" (2 Timothy 1:9-note)


    heavenly calling (Hebrews 3:1-note)


    out of darkness into His marvelous light (1 Peter 2:9-note)


    to walk worthy (Ephesians 4:1- note)


    by grace (Gal 1:6)


    not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles (Romans 9:24-note)


    through the "gospel" that we "may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2Th 2:14)


    and be brought "into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord" (1Cor 1:9)


    and return in triumph "with Him" at the end of this age (Revelation 17:14-note).

    God's great doctrine of our calling should cause all the "called of Jesus Christ" to exclaim "Glory!"

    The call comes from heaven and is to heaven in its appeal. This world is not our home and dearly beloved, we need to quit acting like it is! Peter says clearly that we are "aliens and strangers" (1Pe 2:11, 12-note)

    In the hall of faith chapter the writer describes those who by faith pleased God and who...

    "desire a better country, that is a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them." (Hebrews 11:16)

    And again the writer explains their "heavenly calling" declaring to his readers that...

    "you have not come to a mountain that may be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind...But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel." (Hebrews 12:18-24)
     
  2. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    There are so many who with distorted minds who have missed understood Paul letters and used that to distort all the other scriptures leaning on their own understanding not trusting in Lord Jesus headed to their own destruction. God is calling us to them to save a sinner from the errors of their ways and save them from death.

    It is easier to believe that they are already saved than to believe God is using us believers to save men from destruction coming from their own error and understanding. I think we think too much of our selves that we to can't have a distorted mind leaning too much on our own understanding and not trusting in Jesus.

    God does have no desire for men to be destroyed, but for them to repent and live and He uses men like us as His messengers to call all men to repent and live. There is many callings, but only Jesus can save us from this body of death.

    Me as the old man, my first creation was ready for destruction, through the new birth and abiding in His word my new mothers womb, I have become born again a new creation in Christ. It is the upright one that was chosen before the foundation of the world, for Jesus is the only one who can claim that title so only in Him can I be chosen to. I praise God that Jesus has come to save sinners and I am the worst and I am saved by Him from destruction. We have to be born again in Him to be chosen before the foundation of the world, not one unbeliever that Paul said you was chosen before the foundation of the world.

    Hebrews 3:
    12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion.”

    16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
     
    #102 psalms109:31, Oct 11, 2012
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Here are a few quotes from a sermon on the saving of Zaccheus



    [QUOTE3. Thirdly, it is a hastening call. “Zaccheus, make haste.” The sinner, when he is called by the ordinary ministry,
    replies, “Tomorrow.” He hears a telling sermon and he says, “I will turn to God by-and-by.” The tears roll down his
    cheek but they are wiped away. Some goodness appears but like the cloud of the morning it is dissipated by the sun of
    temptation. He says, “I solemnly vow from this time to be a reformed man. After I have once more indulged in my
    darling sin I will renounce my lusts and decide for God.” Ah, that is only a minister’s call and is good for nothing. Hell,
    they say, is paved with good intentions. These good intentions are begotten by general calls.
    The road to perdition is laid all over with branches of the trees whereon men are sitting, for they often pull down
    branches from the trees but they do not come down themselves. The straw laid down before a sick man’s door causes the
    wheels to roll more noiselessly. So there are some who strew their path with promises of repentance and so go more easily
    and noiselessly down to perdition. But God’s call is not a call for tomorrow. “Today if you will hear His voice, harden
    not your hearts: as in the provocation, when your fathers tempted Me.” God’s grace always comes with dispatch—and if
    I of TULIP Effectual Calling (Irresistible Grace)
    Volume 2 www.spurgeongems.org
    3
    3
    you are drawn by God, you will run after God and not be talking about delays. Tomorrow—it is not written in the
    almanac of time.
    Tomorrow—it is in Satan’s calendar and nowhere else. Tomorrow—it is a rock whitened by the bones of mariners
    who have been wrecked upon it. Tomorrow is the wrecker’s light gleaming on the shore, luring poor ships to
    destruction. Tomorrow—it is the idiot’s cup which he lies at the foot of the rainbow, but which none has ever found.
    Tomorrow—it is the floating island of Loch Lomond, which none has ever seen. Tomorrow—it is a dream.
    Tomorrow—it is a delusion. Tomorrow, yes, tomorrow you may lift up your eyes in Hell, being in torment. Yonder
    clock says “today.” Your pulse whispers “today.” I hear my heart speak as it beats and it says, “today.” Everything cries
    “today.” And the Holy Spirit is in union with these things and says, “Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your
    hearts.” Sinners, are you inclined now to seek the Savior? Are you breathing a prayer now? Are you saying, “Now or
    never! I must be saved now”? If you are, then I hope it is an effectual call, for Christ, when He gives an effectual call, says,
    “Zaccheus, make haste.”
    4. Next, it is a humbling call][/QUOTE]

    This is a good read:
    http://www.spurgeongems.org/tulip-4.pdf
     
    #103 Iconoclast, Oct 11, 2012
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  4. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    While this is true.. the 'call' hinges entirely the 'to', for without it the 'by', 'in', 'with', and 'for' are void of any meaning. This 'to' aspect is where having understanding of what the message of the CALL is, as well as to whom it is sent, helps in working out the issues being discussed. At least in my opinion.

    First, we must ascertain what the message of the Call is. Might I set forth:
    Who Jesus is as well as what He has done. Thus establishing our sin, His Righteousness, and the Judgment to come.

    Second, Message establishes the 'Call' itself in the message. Again might I set forth:

    Repent/Believe (two sides of the same coin) that you might have eternal life (John 17:3 - eternal life.
    Believe and have life - John 20:31 / Titus 1:16.. and in such we have the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38 /3:19).

    Agree
    Agree
    Agree
    This needs to be fleshed out and defined more, since depending on the how one understands the wording you can have either agreement or disagreement

    Again, needs to be fleshed out.
    If this is the condition, then a complete disagreement is set forth here.
    Reformed views on regeneration states when a man is regenerated he:
    (1) given a new nature AND
    (2) now has the Holy Spirit indwelling them or residing in them (though admittedly some hold to this and others do not) AND
    (3) that their relationship to and with God the Father has already been reconciled (thus the new nature and indwelling Spirit of GOd) AND
    (4) they are now IN Christ.

    Ergo, with all the above man can now believe.

    A thread on Regeneration would be fun, I have previously tried to create 3 do discuss it but few really engaged it (and of course you get the people who derail the threads)

    While I agree with the majority of the sentence.. it is the last word that would need to be discussed and that would be better in another thread.

    Mostly, yes.

    This I believe is accurate and why I have stated repeated in these C/A threads.. the real issue is when regeneration takes place.. but secondarily not only what the 'Call' is, but to WHOM is it made. If the message of the Call is the same to both groups, then promise of the call is ALSO offered to both groups.

    But that is part of the point here.. if the message of the Call is the same to all, then the promise of the Call is toward both groups if they will believe just as the condemnation toward both groups would apply if they reject it.

    Again, if you are saying the effectual calling is the new birth, we are at a disagreement and need to open a new thread to discuss this point.

    This is what I think is the crux and many others on both sides agree with.
    -Regeneration -
    1. What regeneration is?

    2. What it does?

    3. How it does it?
    It is both in one. The word 'call' itself is used over and over in scripture and though it is an invitation it is also understood so as to elicit an action due to the message itself. So for me, we cannot do so biblically in removing the invitation aspect from the command any more than we can remove two legitimate options offered in the 'call/command/summons/invitation to whom the message goes out to. The Hell option is just as real for the elect in the calling as Heaven is and vise-versa for the non-elect. The fact they are legitimate options for obedience and disobedience does not negate the fact they will go where they are appointed to.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Is this the kind of verse you are thinking of???

    21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    This verse indicates that those who have the advantage of being among the saints of God.....of hearing of Divine love......but seek to offer their own version of obedience that is self,and fleshly based....have a greater judgement. We also see that principle here:


    1.Luke 12:48
    But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

     
    #105 Iconoclast, Oct 11, 2012
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  6. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    But it is not the historical facts in question here. It is those things which no man can come to know of by himself and for which the Spirit of the Living God was sent forth to convict man of. Thus these are not historical fact man can come to easily on his own but spiritual truths no man can know a part from the revealing work of God whereby to bring conviction.
    I disagree on the passage interpretation you give. It is not about unbelievers since it emphatically declares "It is impossible for those who have...and are partakers of the Holy Spirit... IF they fall away, to renew (create in them a new creation) them again unto repentance.

    The impossibility is about being renewed (unto repentance) if you one falls away (here meaning to leave Christ)

    being quickened - made alive is ONLY found in Christ. The word 'in' relates to being a part of or one with.

    If one is born-again or born-from-above the fact is they are birthed into a new family and as such are NOW a part of that family (unless we are birthed illegitimate/fatherless). But here brings up the issue as to what Born-again entails being that it is a new life (or a new creation). If they are birthed into the family of God then God is their Father and thus be in union with God as family. Now if we are a new creation such as a new birth is, then according to scripture Old things have passed away (literally - are no more) behold, all things have become new (without spot, taint, or blemish) In other words - sinless. This is what being reconciled to God is all about - justification or removal of sin which by nature is the other side of the coin regarding sanctification unto God.

    The one of the many problems I see with the above with the person being 'reconciled' before faith is that the person who is reconciled, due to its meaning, is considered justified toward God and also sanctified by God, making/establishing the person in a right relationship with God - Righteous BEFORE faith. All this without faith ever being exercised nor repentance made. All of these are against what scripture states : that they are all imputed by or through Faith. (see below)
     
  7. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    No, I know of that and agree.. at least presume I do with you :)

    I'm referring to fleshing out what Efficiency means or refers to as it is specific to what he is asking for everyone to potentially agree with
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would they be like the group addressed in hebrews 6?
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes...they would. They are apostates.It is clear in vs7-8....contrasted with the believers in vs9.
     
  10. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Semi-Pel was only slightly less different from the Pel beliefs.

    I disagree with much of this post and I will explain why since this is one of those subjects I have had to get into extensively many times. Historic Arminians or Reformed Arminians (not most Modern day Arminians) should really be understood as Semi-Cals not sem-Pels.

    Most modern day Arminians (those who strayed from historic tenants are no longer Arminians but are in fact semi-Pels. (I will agree here)

    Historical (Reformed) Arminianism has it's own core view that is different and distint from Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. In the historical Arminian view, is specific on the point that God must first initiate (because no man seeks after God of his own) but also that God must enable man to the extent and intent of man being allowed to either receive or reject God's salvation by grace (prevenient grace). The distinct separation of it from the Pel's and semi-Pels is the fact that man does not come to nor seek out God first but that the only way man would even know or desire toward God is that God seek out man first and enable him to respond

    There should be a distinction made between them and not a blanket statement regarding anything not Reformed.

    Free Dictionary:

    Wiki (yes, most reliable :laugh: )
    From CARM:
    Note they hold that man's will is not bound by his sin nature
    Note that man comes to God first.
    Note that God responds to man for his actions (without divine aid enacted)
    Note this rewarding is due to (what they perceive as) grace
    Note additionally the cooperation they claim is between man and God is that man came first and God helped man out.

    No, I see you as still incorrect. It is made on the foundation that semi-pel like Pels' believe that man can initially come to God (of his own desire) a part from any divine action (again, initially) but cannot make it completely and needs God. Thus the 'cooperation' is in the fact that God works with what man as already done to come to him, without His aid.

    No Arminian or Non-Cal disagrees with this. If God does not act and come to man first no man will ever believe because no man will ever know he has a need to.

    As shown above the cooperation you are speaking to negates the accusation you are implying.

    However, for fun - Let us define 'cooperates' here.

    So if a person is involved in anything to which the other party cannot fulfill what they are doing without first said party's involvement - it by definition is cooperation.

    Let me ask an honest rhetorical question.
    Will God save anyone who has not believed? Why not?
    CAN God save anyone a part from faith? Why not?

    If faith is a work and God will not and cannot save unless the person exercises faith/belief, then irregardless of where his faith came from or into being.. by definition man is cooperating with God.

    I'm pretty sure Reformed theology is specific in that man can not be eternally saved a part from faith/believing in Christ.

    I'm not arguing perse`, I speaking to the point of which the term cooperation is used to state that only Reformed theology doesn't cooperate with God when in fact, (If faith is a work) it necessitates it. Irregardless to any miniscule degree of what is considered man's part or responsibility.. man still must act in faith.

    Now since faith, by scriptural definition, is not a work, we can safely state that faith can not be seen as cooperating with God for salvation as man does nothing to earn it, nor gives anything in exchange for it, nor but simply believes what God said. God saves man by His choice for His purpose and to His glory.

    Therefore it appears that either both Reformed and Historic Arminians are either synergistic (since both claim man must believe or God will not save him), or both are Monergistic (meaning God is the one who saves and man did nothing to help save himself). As is what I argue (and all the non-Cals and Historic Arminians I know).. faith does not save anyone, God does. Faith simply agrees with the truth before it.

    What you gave is not Semi-Pel beliefs and thus most of those you know do not fall into that category.

    Unless God makes all men able to hear and respond :eek:
     
    #110 Allan, Oct 11, 2012
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  11. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Kudos Brother Allan. I think you have hit the nail on the head.


    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Elder Michael Gowens:

    "The gospel call is an external appeal to the mind (Rom. 12:2; 2 Cor. l 1:2; 2 Cor. 4:4). Luke says that Paul "reasoned with them out of the scriptures, opening and alleging that Christ must needs have suffered and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts 17:2-3). Do you see the element of logic, the rational dimension of the gospel, in those words? Read any sermon in Acts (Acts 2, 17, 26) and note the appeal to the mind. Why was Agrippa "almost persuaded to become a Christian" (Acts 26:28)? Because the sheer weight of Paul's testimony was so persuasive and compelling. Now this is not to say that the Gospel is strictly an appeal to man's natural intellect, but the fact that the gospel call is by its very nature rational (that is, it is a verbal communication which must be processed through the mind before it has an impact on the emotions) is unavoidable.

    The effectual call, on the contrary, is not an external appeal to the mind, but an inward creative act in the soul. The effectual call is a call, in Augustine's words, by "Divine Imperative." It is an act of creation in exactly the same way that the origin of the universe was an act of creation. How did God create the universe? By the sheer power of His command, His creative fiat: "And God said, Let there be..." and there was. "Let there be" is a command, an imperative. In the beginning, "God commanded the light to shine out of darkness." It was a command, a fiat. By the mere utterance of His voice, galaxies, solar systems, planets, oceans, mountains, trees, rocks, air, atoms, and molecules were called into existence out of nothing. What awesome power!....."

    ".....The effectual call is a call to eternal salvation; the gospel call is a call to repentance and faith (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30; Acts 20:21; Acts 26:20). The effectual call is a call to sonship; the gospel call is a call to discipleship. God speaks directly in the effectual call; God speaks through men in the gospel call. The effectual call is always obeyed; the gospel call is frequently disobeyed, shunned, and resisted. The effectual call is a creation; the gospel call is a communication. The effectual call is directed to the dead; the gospel call is directed to the living. The effectual call is an internal call; the gospel call is an external appeal. The effectual call produces life (2 Tim. 1:9); the gospel call produces light (2 Tim. 1:10). The sinner responds involuntarily in the effectual call (like Lazarus). The gospel call, however, calls for a voluntary, decisive response ("...harden not your hearts" - Heb. 3:15). The conclusive testimony of Scripture is that the effectual call precedes the gospel call and that the effectual call gives a man spiritual life, while the gospel call gives a man knowledge and understanding. This distinction between regeneration and gospel conversion is essential."

    Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling
     
    #112 kyredneck, Oct 12, 2012
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  13. WITBOTL

    WITBOTL New Member

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    Agreed. Not only the “to” aspect but we should also consider closely the scope of its message and purpose, for that will inform the debate. Are there secondary purposes or is it singular. Is the message narrow “Repent/Believe that you might have eternal life” or does it have a wider scope? (just putting forth the question, not suggesting any answer)

    fair enough. My main point here is not to look at the mechanics but only suggest that we can agree that some receive the message and believe with glorification as an assured end. To those the call is “effectual” Not trying to go beyond that much at this point. By effectual I simply mean it was effective (or effected) and lets say successful (although I think we should look at whether it can be ineffectual and unsuccessful too because we might find some debate there.)

    by this I simply mean some to whom the message is sent forth believe unto glorification (if you will) not trying to define the mechanics yet.

    I don’t think we have to disagree yet... all I mean is that it is only effectual in those who believe (by definition) and what makes it effectual is up for discussion. The end result I think we both can agree is the new birth (whether faith is the fruit of the new birth/regeneration or whether faith causes the new birth) In other words we can agree that from the point of the new birth on we have no dispute and leading up to it we have general agreement.

    I think our dispute comes in how (more so than when) the promise of the call becomes a present reality and most specifically whether faith is the fruit of a regenerate heart fully from a divine source and grace itself or is it the germinating seed from a human source which God then uses to renovate the heart thereby enabling grace to work?

    Secondly, the new birth is a divider so to speak between those to whom the call goes. Ultimately, is there “an elect” to whom the Holy Spirit deals inwardly, personally and differently than the rest? This raises a question as to whether there is equality in the outward and universal aspects of the call as well. The word is to be sent out to all men, but have all men heard? The Holy Spirit works as men spread the gospel, but does he work equally towards all men? Does the answer to this challenge your theology?

    Maybe getting ahead of ourselves but my understanding of the effectual call is that in the day of his power the Holy Spirit works effectually (um... causatively secures the effect?) in that man, renovating his heart through the quickening (making alive) of the spirit giving him a new nature, repentance and faith, making him willing. I don’t believe these aspects are temporally separated so I don’t believe quickening happens before faith in time but that repentance and faith are given in regeneration. This effectual call is the call in which the Holy Spirit causes a man to accept Christ through faith whereby he is justified, reconciled and sanctified. The call of the Holy Spirit, the regenerating work, the imparting of repentance and faith, the willing acceptance through that faith I believe are simultaneous events in time but have a logical understanding which starts in the work of the Holy Spirit and ends in the response of man.

    I agree that ultimately we are talking about the mechanics of regeneration. I wonder if we got in to it if we would find agreement as far as understanding that faith does not exist apart from the new birth in either direction.

    However, I think the “go slow” approach has so far been useful for more than just the disputes we have and perhaps we should work our way to these points of dispute through some of the earlier areas involved, because I think it will inform the debate as well and give us some things in which we can all glory.

    I think
    is where we should go first.

    In how we interpret the implications of this statement comes much of the misunderstanding and rancor that shows up in these threads. We should go here, but carefully and with understanding.

    let’s consider the message, the promise, the recipients, God’s working in this, and the response.

    Agreed. However, much disagreement comes from how we understand legitimacy in the face of “unfairness”, inability, responsibility and how far grace reaches and how active is it.

    Believe it or not I can agree with this statement, but it is in the details where we might disagree. There is in all of this a divine aspect and a human one and they should sometimes be rightly considered separately and differently. Of course, we are not in a neutral position presented with an option of heaven or hell. We are in a condemned position and are not provided an option by the gospel message, but a saviour. By making no choice we continue condemned. That is not to say that men don’t reject the gospel, they do, but in so doing they continue in the state they were already in. This is not an insignificant point.

    So what is the message of the call what are its intended recipients and why? Are there distinctions and differences in the answer to why and the recipients? Are there distinctions in the aspects of the message? Also, how does the message go out? When is it understood to have been sent, when is it understood to have been received?

    Some suggestions:
    recipients: elect/non elect, Jews/Gentiles
    Message: Repent/Believe (responsibilities of the message), Redeemer, Saviour, High Priest, friend (who of the message)
    what about Lord and King and kingdom - how important is that to the message (proclamation as well as invitation)?
    Eternal Life/Lake of Fire (outcomes)
    Legal aspects, relational aspects.
    Human aspects to the call: evangelists/preachers, witnesses, proclamation
    Divine Aspects: The Word and its operation, the Holy Spirit and his operation

    Outward aspects, inward aspects.

    What about responsibility and ability?

    Sorry for the many questions, but it seems like this “call thing” while possible to be expressed simply has many aspects.

    We can get much from this, especially if we can look at it and even disagree without accusation.

    Great to have this conversation with you Allen, I hope you don’t mind approaching this in such a broad and kind of round about way, but I have appreciated much from this thread and Icon has expanded this in a way that is instructive and fun.
     
    #113 WITBOTL, Oct 12, 2012
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  14. WITBOTL

    WITBOTL New Member

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    some great comparison/contrasting of the two!
    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  15. WITBOTL

    WITBOTL New Member

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    This is a good read:
    http://www.spurgeongems.org/tulip-4.pdf[/QUOTE]

    great! Spurgeon had a compelling eloquence!

    when he says "hastening call" did he mean "quickening call" :laugh::laugh:
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Do you see the two calls in this?:

    15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,
    16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1
     
  17. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Neither in Arminian, Non-Cal, Cal, nor the Reformed view, do we find regeneration is 'the eternal salvation' which you propose. There is no eternal salvation a part from faith.

    The gospel call isn't to 'the eternally saved' to be discipled. It is to lost whom God will eternally save.
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    What you really mean here Allan is that there is no salvation apart from man's will. You say 'faith', but what you really mean is man's choice, man's free will.

    Never mind passages such as 'who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.' Jn 1:13

    Eternal salvation denotes that which man is absolutely totally passive in.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The inward effectual call is irresitable in that it is not ultimately resisted.
    As the Spirit of God begins to draw the sinner in....he might resist the initial convicting work by self righteousness and a religious veneer,
    God's work is effectual at all times...because He has ordained to build His church.
    The call is not random ,or left to the unscriptural idea of chance.Just like the building of the tabernacle was not random:




    God was in type showing part of His eternal design to restore Sacred Space that was lost in the fall.

    As priests were to minister in the tabernacle, even so now the believers are called to holy service by God now. His kingdom is expanding worldwide.
    Jn3:16. he is placing the living stones in his Holy temple now-

     
  20. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    The grace of God is all around us. It is in the trees that gives us oxygen materials to make a shelter. Grace is in the rain that waters the trees. I can go on. Grace is in His Son on the cross, which without the knowledge in it that comes from God and His words about Jesus and the words of Jesus the scriptures tells of His coming and without that you know nothing of it. It doesn't take way the fact it is already done and there for you, this grace. It is first faith( which is made up of knowledge from God not man, then trust and belief in His son that comes from us), then you have the grace that is already there, then deeds.

    Faith without deeds can such a faith save you and what is faith without the knowledge that came down from heaven through His Son? To look forward to the one who will crush the serpents head or to look back at the one who did. The work of the devil from the beginning has been crushed believe in the one who crushed it and you will be saved. You don't believe in I you believe and trust in Him. Only men condemn men for trusting in His Son making it a work from man.


    "My fear is lest the reader should rest content with understanding what is to be done, and yet never do it. Better the poorest real faith actually at work, than the best ideal of it left in the region of speculation. The great matter is to believe on the Lord Jesus at once. Never mind distinctions and definitions. A hungry man eats though he does not understand the composition of his food, the anatomy of his mouth, or the process of digestion: he lives because he eats. Another far more clever person understands thoroughly the science of nutrition; but if he does not eat he will die, with all his knowledge. There are, no doubt, many at this hour in Hell who understood the doctrine of faith, but did not believe. On the other hand, not one who has trusted in the Lord Jesus has ever been cast out, though he may never have been able intelligently to define his faith. Oh dear reader, receive the Lord Jesus into your soul, and you shall live forever! "He that believeth in Him hath everlasting life.""

    C. H. Spurgeon

    John 6:53
    Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

    John 6:63
    The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
     
    #120 psalms109:31, Oct 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2012
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