Featured One Must Hold to the Physical bodily resurrection to be saved?

No need, its perfectly clear already.

But a person teaching it is okay to murder children in the womb, that men can be Christians without being born again, and that Annihilation is valid doctrine...

...cannot call themselves Baptist.

Again, the false dichotomy.

You are essentially proposing the very error that Lordship Salvation addresses. What people think Lordship Salvation teaches.

As already mentioned, it is the "Super Christian" garbage that numerous denominations teach, and it is error.

If they are actually "following Scripture," then they are Christians.

You are basically saying that men become Christians by "committing an oath to the Lord," which is borderline works-based drivel. At best it is Free Will Drivel.

Salvation is a supernatural process that is wholly the work of Sovereign God.

And I have been clear, the natural man is enlightened to the Gospel, but, he is not saved until he receives Christ, at which time...

...he is born again.

And then he/she is a Christian, and then they can follow Scripture and Christ.


Continued...

 

It is your heart that defends Abortion, Happy. It is your heart that rejects the Word of God and teaches...


Happy said: ↑


Pfft! Nonsense. A person can be a Christian ~ and not be saved or born again.


If that offends you it is not me you have the problem with...it is very much a heart issue and the problem needs to be remedied by God.

Let me ask you this, Happy, are you a "Christian that has not 'submitted,' and not born again?"

Can you at least answer that?


Continued...

 

But what you have ignored is that I am addressing your error in totality, not just the deflection.

As I said, back-peddle all you want, then cry foul, that is nothing new in debate. But you are not going to get past what you yourself have said until you renounce that heresy.

I will allow the Public Record to speak for itself.

Its all right there, and cannot be denied.

My fellowship, the one I now attend, is an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. And like all churches, and in fact all of the population of the world, we use "name tags" to designate who it is we are speaking about.

We also use the "name tags" that are used in Scripture, such as heretic, liar, deceiver, false brethren, false teacher, damnable doctrine, demon doctrine...

...get the point?

Just stick to the focus, Happy, and provide a Scriptural support for this...


Happy said: ↑

Pfft! Nonsense. A person can be a Christian ~ and not be saved or born again.


That is the focus, and until you provide something more than your Liberal Philosophy, then we make no progress, and you make a Doctrinal Debate an issue about yourself, as you continue to do.


Continued...

 

Happy said: ↑
Pfft! Nonsense. A person can be a Christian ~ and not be saved or born again.
Darrell C said: ↑
No, actually, one is not a Christian until they are Regenerate, and this is a result of trusting on the Sacrifice of Christ, which...

So, according to you a person learning about Christ, having faith, believing, is not a Christian, and following a doctrine of Demons.

I disagree.

I guess all the children, women, men coming to your Church who are not saved, are being fed a Doctrine of Demons.




...not one disciple did until they were enlightened by the Comforter.
Happy said: ↑
You think a person in the process of LEARNING about Christ, is not follower of Christ's teachings?
Darrell C said: ↑
One cannot "learn of Christ" in their natural state. The only time this occurs is when one is under conviction of the Holy Ghost. Scripture makes that clear.
Happy said: ↑
False. Men LEARN of CHRIST in their "natural state". Men in their "natural state" SUBMIT unto Christ.
The "KNOWLEDGE" is in Scripture. The "UNDERSTANDING" of the knowledge is what is given a man, AFTER he submits. And even then, that man needs to SEEK that understanding.

So, according to you, men can not learn of Christ in their natural state, and to believe otherwise is a Doctrine of Demons.

I disagree.

Men learn about Jesus, learn about Christ, and become saved, in their natural state.

I understand the difference between a man calling himself a Christian, while he is learning, believing and having faith.....and a man calling himself a BORN AGAIN Christian, who has followed, learned, believing, having faith, and SUBMITS unto God and remains following, learning, having faith.

You think yourself exclusive, by your understanding of the term Christian.
However the world is not required to submit to your exclusive understanding.

Scripture itself reveals:
salvation was provided for ALL the world.
not all of the world will accept the salvation provided FOR THEM.
It is necessary to FIRST learn about something BEFORE making a election to pledge an oath to it.
Men learning ABOUT God, are being enlightened by the Holy Spirit /Word of God.
Men being enlightened, who stop being enlightened; scripture speaks of them losing faith.
Men being enlightened, and pledging an oath to trust what they learn, become recipients of the salvation,
provided to all the world.

 

More frustrating for me, rather than assuming that there might be people playing Church, is critiquing the sermons. lol

But you wouldn't understand that.

Not accusations but what you have spoken in Public Forum.

You have proposed...

1. Annihilation;

2. Men do not become "alive" until they breathe air;

3. Men can be Christians and not born again;


Show me the Baptist Group that teaches any of these. We'll take it from there.

It is true, some people consider Independent Fundamental Baptists as a cult, lol.

And to make it worse, I am a Pre-Tribulational Rapturist.

I see nothing wrong with calling something what it is.

It is not an issue that has come up, so how is it that I do this?

No, but, the revelation we have in the New Testament is not found in the Old Testament.

That is why Paul calls certain Doctrines mysteries.

Show me one person that was trusting in the Risen Savior prior to Pentecost.

And that is the problem you have, you are not understanding of a very clear command:


Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The writer of Hebrews makes it clear that there are foundational principles, and that which is complete. The command is not to lay again that which is foundational.

But if you cannot even understand this...


John 3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

...then there is no reason to get into a passage that even :Scholarly Theologians" butcher on a regular basis.

And we know you do not understand John 3 due to what you have spoken...


Happy said: ↑

Pfft! Nonsense. A person can be a Christian ~ and not be saved or born again.


Continued...

 

But understanding Who Messiah is and what He came to do is.

That began at Pentecost.

Thought it was a bad thing to use name tags.

There is a word for people who rail against others for doing something...then do it themselves.

No, I would actually like you to provide a Scriptural presentation for your philosophy, and prove it is not either Liberal or Philosophy.

I would also like you to address the Scriptural presentations given you to show that it is.

No, he, like most preachers and Pastors, simply recognizes that among the wheat there are going to be tares, and addresses this issue from the pulpit.

How is the fact you are too afraid to respond to a simple question...deceitful?

If you are ashamed of the group you are actually a part of, perhaps you should consider finding a new one.

You are being dishonest if you claim to be a Baptist that you might have access to a Baptist Only board and you are not a Baptist.

If the shoe fits...


Continued...

 

Why do you insist on making up such lies?

I have never said I support, or advocate or defend abortion.

I support, advocate and defend a person's right to make their OWN decisions and Be themselves responsible and accountable for their OWN actions.

I don't support, advocate and defend lying either....however I do support, advocate and defend your right to spew out lies, and you be the one accountable for YOUR OWN words.

 

Its not really a guess to speculate that someone who holds to doctrine contrary to typical Baptist Doctrine is not really a Baptist, Happy.

It is true there are Charismatic groups that take up the title Baptist in their name, but that is usually a slam on Baptists itself. For example "Bible Believing Baptist Church."

It's just pointing out something that most people who have attended Christian Fellowships have witnessed.

"Faithful" Church Attendance equates to validation of Salvation in Christ, when that is a poor means by which we examine the genuine quality of our salvation.

Because there is no group that teaches exactly what I believe, but, Independent Baptist Churches come closest.

I am actually at this point looking for a new fellowship closer to home. Where I have a membership now is further away than I would prefer to go, but I have stayed there because at one time quite a few of my Family was going there, and I did not want to influence their decision to go there. Now, the kids (my nephew and nieces) have grown up and either go somewhere else or have stopped going, and my Dad and Brother are no longer going there, so, I have no responsibility or fear I might impact their decisions, so we (my wife and I) have been visiting other fellowships.

But I do not expect to find one that teaches what I believe. Most people here are an example of the Doctrinal Differences I have with most, the primary issue being that I believe men were not born again before Pentecost, whereas most think they were, and confuse being "saved" from an eternal perspective with being born again.

As far as committing myself to a membership anywhere, i view it as important that we are members of a local Body, but do not view that as contributing to our salvation apart from its impact on progressive sanctification, which is the very point I referred to.

That is actually true in part, because sometimes people get caught up in heresy and do not understand the implication of that heresy.

For example, you think Salvation in Christ is something a natural man can seek after, which is why you believe men can be Christians without being born again.

You are in error.


Continued...

 

The "labels" I use designate what I see, that is true, and if you want to dispute my view that you are engaging in Liberal Philosophy, then you had better start bringing a Scriptural support for your heresy.

We can start with this one:

Actually I have not, that is the point.

The points I have taken issue with have no relation to Baptist Doctrine.

The issues I have with Baptist Doctrine I disagree with I address with those Baptists who hold to them.

You have shown all you are interested in doing is arguing.

And besides, they are on the list.

And the more you talk the greater the risk that the list will grow, just as it has in this thread to include your belief that men can be Christians and not saved or born again.

We will see how the thread in Politics adds to the list.

I truly wish you would.


God bless.

 

Happy said: ↑


Pfft! Nonsense. A person can be a Christian ~ and not be saved or born again.


Then you must admit to the fact that when I pointed out that you teach a false dichotomy I was correct.

Only Christians are saved.

I've already addressed this issue.

You are not going to justify your position:

Happy said: ↑

Pfft! Nonsense. A person can be a Christian ~ and not be saved or born again.



Darrell C said: ↑
No, actually, one is not a Christian until they are Regenerate, and this is a result of trusting on the Sacrifice of Christ, which...

...not one disciple did until they were enlightened by the Comforter.


Happy said: ↑
You think a person in the process of LEARNING about Christ, is not follower of Christ's teachings?


Darrell C said: ↑
One cannot "learn of Christ" in their natural state. The only time this occurs is when one is under conviction of the Holy Ghost. Scripture makes that clear.


Happy said: ↑

False. Men LEARN of CHRIST in their "natural state". Men in their "natural state" SUBMIT unto Christ.
The "KNOWLEDGE" is in Scripture. The "UNDERSTANDING" of the knowledge is what is given a man, AFTER he submits. And even then, that man needs to SEEK that understanding.


You teach one is a Christian without being regenerate.

Men do not "take" salvation.

They do not "keep" salvation.

And they are not saved until they are born again believers. Then...they are Christians.

If you say so.

Okay, now we are getting somewhere:

This does not describe a Christian. Any more than we would call tares wheat.

That is the false dichotomy you present:

The Bible does not teach two types of Christian.

Great logic.

I argue that only those who are born again are Christians, and I get this.


God bless.

 

Representative of all your posts.




God bless.

 

This is like saying "So according to you, a man obeying the Law, murdering children, reading his Bible...cannot be saved."

Only Christians have faith in the Christ they learn about.

I know, why do you think I have taken all this time to speak with you?

Some them, presumably.

Demon Doctrine has a way of keeping people from acknowledging the truth.

I have been clear, the only way for natural man to understand the spiritual things of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ topping that particular list...

...is during the convicting ministry of the Comforter.

So please do not misrepresent what has been told you numerous times.

I know, why do you think I have taken all this time to speak with you? lol

We are making progress.

It is your "understanding" being addressed.

Just because someone calls themselves a Christian does not mean they are.

Only those who are born again are Christians.

I am not promoting myself, or my doctrine, I am simply stating what is Basic Bible Doctrine.

You teach heresy by saying men can be Christians without being born again.



Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


Take note on Who it is that does the "keeping" of our salvation, Happy.

No, Happy, "salvation" was not provided to the whole world, the opportunity for salvation was provided. Its a significant distinction which has to be made based on the statements you have made.

Not all the world will receive the Provision of Salvation that God has provided.

Could you show me where we "make an election to pledge an oath" in Scripture?

Not all of them.

Only those that God enlightens. That pertains to the saved and the lost, or, Christians and non-Christians, the only two types of people in the world.

You can't lose that which you don't have.

That they reject the Way of Righteousness, that is, the Truth God enlightens their darkened minds to...shows they did not have faith.

Saving faith, general faith, and no faith are distinctive issues in Scripture.

Great.

Now all you need is Scripture that teaches that, and you will support your statement.


God bless.

 

You are not qualified to know what I understand.

I have never said anything about annihilation.
I have never said men do not become alive until they breathe air.
I have said men learning about God, having faith, can call themselves Christians without your permission.

uh no. I am not going to search Baptist groups to see who agrees with YOUR WORDS.

I see something wrong with calling something what it isn't

The Messiah -
His Life -
His Rejection -
His Death -
His Rising up -

All foretold in the OT ~

It is not about who believes what, but rather what is in Scripture.

I know what applies to me. And you are not qualified to determine what applies to me.

You pretending you know my understanding from a few snippets in this forum is laughable.

Happy said: ↑

Pfft! Nonsense. A person can be a Christian ~ and not be saved or born again.

Correct.
A man can have faith believing in Christ, call himself a Christian and not be saved or born again.

Did that man fulfill John 3: 3 or John 3; 5 ? No. And I never said he did.
Is that man saved? No. And I never said he was.
Is that man born again? No. And I never said he was.

Is that man following? In faith? Believing what he is learning? Yes.
Is that man following Christ's teachings? Yes.

Can he call himself a Christian? Sure.

However, IF such a man were to claim he was a Christian, I'm sure, as you have proved, you would be hot on his heels, preaching he believes a Doctrine of Demons.

 

When you refuse to acknowledge what GOd has spoken in His Word about the sanctity of Life of the unborn child, and refuse to even admit, as Scripture makes clear, that the child in the womb even has life, then yes...

...you support the murder of unborn children.

And that is a philosophy of Liberals.

Thank you for admitting your Liberal and ungodly worldview.

You support the murder of the unborn child.

No-one has a right to take the life of another human being (earthlings in your terminology).

That does not seem to be the case.

but you can settle my speculation by telling me exactly what kind of Baptist you are, or at least, what Baptist group you affiliate with.

I can use all the support I can get, so thanks!




God bless.

 

Sure I am.

That is one of your problems...you do not even understand what you speak about.

Does the word "kaput" ring any bells?

Okay, Happy.

So now you will admit that children in the womb are individuals who have a life of their own, a body and a spirit?

We both know you won't.

I can't keep running in circles with you. Particularly when I am the only doing any work in this discussion.

This is true, but, contrary to your philosophy...

...that doesn't make them Christians.

You promote an argument that Atheists present, which they use to soothe their consciences.

You wouldn't find them anyway.

No you don't.

You have no problem calling people who are not Christians...Christians.

Shall we revisit the difference between knowledge and understanding?

Had you responded to the many passages already provided to you in these discussions that show that the disciples did not understand, and did not even believe the Lord had risen from the dead...

...you wouldn't be continuing to offer irrelevant arguments.

And being a Christian very much is a matter of what is believed.

Actually you don't. You don't seem to know that defending the murder of Children in the womb, and calling things "what they aren't" and Liberal Philosophy applies to you. Its all right there in the Public Record.

A few snippets?

There's pages and pages...

There is only so much time I will devote to trying to help someone, Happy, and you have just about exhausted the time I will give you.

But thanks for once again reiterating the very heresy that our discussion in this particular thread began with:

I might, for your sake, suggest you start a thread and inquire of your peers if your doctrine is correct. Apparently what Scripture has to say means nothing to you, so that leaves justifying your Liberal Philosophy by seeking to get others to agree that you are correct.

Muslims have faith. Buddhists have faith. Mormons have faith.

But they are not Christians, because their doctrine differs from the Word of God which defines how one becomes a Christian, and what a Christian is.

Only those who are born again are Christians.


God bless.

 

Half truth -

Salvation is provided for all. If you don't receive it WHILE bodily alive, you lose it, and bodily die in your sins.

If you receive your Salvation WHILE bodily alive, you can never lose the Salvation you received.

But if you prefer to teach half truths - carry on.

 

You obviously have no qualms about falsely testifying against other.

Thanks for the warning that this forum promotes false testimonies of its members.

That is very liberal of you to push your unsolicited help on me. Apparently you do not understand, I neither asked you to help me, nor do I agree with your philosophy, false accusations, false testimonies or speaking for me.

I didn't. How dare you make a false claim?

So. It is also, as I mentioned, and you said it wasn't, but is written no less than 5 times on the pages.

Another one of your lies. I have not said such an ignorant thing.

Did I say that? uh no I didn't.

Once again, YOU speak YOUR WORDS, then pretend they are my words, (when they are not) then lecture me about how the words you spoke, your philosophy, conflicts with Scripture.

Stop trying to speak for me. Even you agree your speech conflicts with Scripture. So stop trying to dump your nonsense on me.

Yep, anyone can call themselves whatever they want. And if a man following the teachings of Christ wants to call himself a Christian, so what?

LOL ~ I said nothing whatsoever to not become saved. However you can not acknowledge even Scripture teaches to LEARN before you commit. And Be SURE before you commit. And apparently you do not think one LEARNING and following in faith the teachings of Christ is someone worthy to call themselves a Christian.

So, what!