Most humans believe that possibilities are ontologically real. We now have good reason to believe that all possibilities have an inherent concomitant degree of probability and really, IMO, it is nonsensical to think that they wouldn't. Since the scientific study of probability is a modern development starting in the 17th century we are comfortable with deliberating possible actions based on their probabilities. Perhaps casting of the die was a way to arrive at a decided opinion between possibilities in situations for which there were no metrics to ascertain their probabilities or where greater reason was inconvenient or inaccessible. Yet, whereas man is just now coming to understand the ideas of 'possibility' and 'probability' we are confident that God has always known of them.
My question is, While we live and believe in the idea of 'probabilities' does God know anything as a probability? Has God known possibilities and probabilities as only the creatures' illusions and are not ontologically real to Him? If God knows possibilities then how is it that He can not know them simultaneously in the same way?
Only Knows "No" or "Probably not" as well?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by humblethinker, Jun 29, 2012.
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It must first be granted that the future consists of uncertain events. Once that is granted, probability comes in to play, but not before. Further, it is better I think to view it as not a question of will or will not happen but rather will or might not...... or will not or might happen. Make sense?
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HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Why does there have to be number of potential possibilities? -
HT, I would say that God created the entire sample space and thus he is quite aware of all permutations and combinations. -
Jesus Friend of Sinners
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66zqQBxhUDA -
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I don't think that is what I was saying. -
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Reply to OP
Here is the logic behind the conclusion - if the future is predestined exhaustively, then no other possibility exists, so possibility would be a mental construct of men. But, if the future is not fixed, i.e. things happen by chance as Jesus said, then possibilities exist in reality.
But what about the Arminian claim that God can know the future exhaustively yet not fix it exhaustively. Then God would know all but one possibility as a fictional construct of the mind of man, and the one that will occur as a predetermined reality. No, it does not hang together, but the powers that be claim that is what orthodox Baptists specifically subscribe to. :) -
However, the main purpose for the OP was to consider God's opinions of what is actually 'possible' and what was actually 'certain'.
Would you agree?
I particularly think your signature quote is appropriate to consider here:
Absurdity, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion. (Bierce)
God, unless he is absurd as some say, cannot simultaneously hold these two contradictory ideas: that 'this' is a possibility and a certainty. The 'this' is ontologically either one or the other from God's perspective and should be from ours as well. While our perspective may be obscured His is not. -
My thinking is that God knows everything from a totally different perspective than we do because He knows all of the ins, outs, ups and downs. We cannot have a thought that God has not already had, can we?
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In my last post I have a significant typo that should be easily recognized but may obviously confuse the reading.
The part, "yes, agreed. Now from God's perspective, the things that are not certainties..." should be read without the 'not'. -
If you dwell upon this aspect of God, it is difficult to imagine that anything can take place in human events that escapes the knowledge of God. More than that, how can a God, who created all things and the laws to govern all things, not also direct all things? How can God keep himself from knowing? The very idea is antithetical to the nature of God. We are guilty of looking at the complexities of human choices/possibilities and trying to reduce them to an algorithm in order to provide a degree of certainty to our ever inquisitive minds.
If scripture even alludes to God advocating a probability it is more for our sake then his. When Moses spoke on behalf of God, "choose life" (Deu. 30:19), was he waiting in anticipation as to who would choose him? If God is truly omniscient then the answer can only be, "no." But is the idea of probability alive and well within men? Certainly. As finite creatures we cannot help but exist in the world of uncertainty, probability and possibility. What we must careful of is not to transfer our finite reasoning to God. We may explain him in such ways, but we cannot go beyond that line.
I've used an object lesson in teaching ontology and omniscience from God's perspective. Draw a large circle on a piece of paper. Next, draw a horizontal line in the middle of the circle stopping just short of connecting the line to either side of the circle. Basically you are creating a north and south hemisphere without connecting the dividing line to the actual circle. The circle represents God. The horizontal line in the middle represents linear time. The far left of the line is the creation event. The far right of the line is the end of the age. Every human and cosmic event occupies a spot on the linear line. The creation of Adam, the birth of Christ, the Civil War, Neil Armstrong's first step on the moon, and ultimately the ushering in of the eternal state. You and I occupy a spot on that linear line. Mere specks we are. God, as the circle, surrounds all of linear time. He sees pre-creation eternity, linear time, and post-creation eternity as happened, happening, and yet to happen. Where the object lesson breaks down (and actually makes it an even stronger illustration) is that the circle has borders. God has no borders. Borders are constructs of the human mind, allowing us perspective. God is beyond even that. Our minds lack the ability to comprehend the magnitude of this truth, and yet here we are discussing whether God knows all possibilities and probabilities. -
Are there really a multitudes of possibilities IF only those allowed or done by him ever actually occur? -
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In the following thoughts I would like to reassert post #14 to quantumfaith (and everyone that believes in free will but holds that the Open View of the future is an impossibility or is unscriptural) and look forward to replies from them.
The main purpose for the OP was to consider God's opinions of what is actually 'possible' and what was actually 'certain'.
Now from God's perspective, the things that are certainties he knows as such and to know them as uncertainties would be a contradiction, a falsity. The things that are uncertainties he knows as such and to know them as certainties would be a contradiction, a falsity.
I particularly think this quote is appropriate to consider here:
Absurdity, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion. (Bierce)
God, unless he is absurd as some say, cannot simultaneously hold these two contradictory ideas: that 'this' is a possibility and a certainty. The 'this' is ontologically either one or the other from God's perspective and should be from ours as well. While our perspective may be obscured His is not.
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