This is just not what Romans 5 teaches. One man's disobiedence passed both death and condemnation to all men. That is what the Word says. And I did not say we all sinned as Adam sinned. The Scripture teaches otherwise.
Original Sin and Imputed Sin
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ReformedBaptist, Aug 22, 2007.
Page 4 of 8
-
-
Take for example -- can God choose to become a human instead of a mere Spirit? Can He choose to be a baby in a manger rather than the King that He is?
skypair -
Bro. RB,
I am trying to understand what "total depravity" means. Apparently I did have a wrong impression as I thought it meant that people really were just as evil as they could be.
Okay, if it doesn't mean that, exactly, how does it change our behavior?
If I understand you correctly, (and I may not) Adam and Eve start out with somehow a lesser propensity to sin than we do. They Fall anyway, and then boom, they now have a greater tendency toward sin and this tendency is passed along to their children? Does this new "sin nature" mean that man can never do anything that is righteous or that pleases God?
Where did the "sin nature" come from? How was it added to Adam's (and I assume Eve's) spiritual/mental/physical makeup? Is it something that God added to us? Did Satan add it to us?
Seems like there would be something in the Genesis account about it but I can't see anything there. God does talk about how they (Adam and Eve) now have a knowledge of good and evil, but nothing about them receiving a new nature that makes them more prone to sin.
As for Romans 5, that all seems to be referring to how we all physically die, and how we share in the consequences of Adam's sin in that we die just like he did.
I'm sorry, and I mean no disrespect, but I just don't see where this idea of Total Depravity comes from.
As for Noah, and probably Enoch too, I agree that they were justified just as we are, by Grace through Faith. But, it certainly appears that their behavior was more Godly than that of the folks around them, and that God responded to that in how He dealt with them.
Good night, and "see" ya later,
Les -
Have you reviewed the "blood poisoning" theory above?
Let me also suggest that Edwards was not talking about our infancy but humanity's infancy. As such, he really wasn't claiming any sin guilt laid upon infants but a proclivity for sin born of the "flesh."
So was Jesus born of the flesh? No. We know for a fact that He was born of the seed of the Spirit! If He had had to be "born again" as we arem, from corrupted bodies, then He may have sinned before being born again, right?
Jesus was "born again" and "born" at the same time. The OT saints will, likewise, be "born again" 100% of the Spirit when they are resurrected into Messiah's kingdom, the MK. Check out Dan 9:24 -- "bring in everlasting righteousness" of Israel.
skypair -
A reformed baptist why don't you get to the point and just tell us you believe a baby can go to hell. Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin ENTERED INTO THE WORLD, and so DEATH passed upon all MEN, for that all have SINNED. I hate to say this reformed a baby or a child is not a man. It said sin ENTERED INTO THE WORLD. ( For until the LAW SIN WAS IN THE WORLD: but sin is not IMPUTED when there is no LAW. Imputed: To set to the account of, Within,inside of, surrounded by; Need I say more. Ro 7:9 For I was ALIVE without the law ONCE: but when the commandment came SIN REVIVED, and I died.
-
[
skypair -
skypair -
skypair -
Do you have a passage for that?
Thanks,
Les -
-
Getting ready to go to Church but I wanted to make some comments regard the biblical doctrine of total depravity. I am continually amazed to find Christians denying this teaching or just not understanding it. I mean nothing against you in this regard, but I am just surprised by this. Douglas Wilson of the Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics has several great statements on this. I like this one alot:
"Before regeneration, we are nothing but dry bones. Unregenerate man is dead in his transgression and sin (Eph. 2:1-2; Col. 23). He is not sick, he is not ailing; he is dead. Now to say that he is dead in this respect is not to assert that he is physically dead, or dead in every aspect of his being. It simply means that he is dead with regard to spiritual things. He has no connection with the life of the Spirit,which comes only as a gift from God. Because man is dead, he must be born again (John 3:5-7). Because he is dead in sin, he is hostile to God and will not submit to His laws. Even further, he cannot submit to His laws (Rom. 8:7-8). The natural man is incapable of understanding spiritual things, and since the gospel is in the front rank of spiritual things which require spiritual understanding, this means the natural man has no ability to comprehend the gospel ( I Cor. 2:14)."
And again,
"The doctrine of total depravity is this: man is totally unable to contribute to his own salvation in any way, because he is dead in his sins. For example, the resurrection of Lazarus was not a joint effort between Christ and Lazarus. Lazarus came forth because he was raised, not in order to be raised."
Some have called total depravity "total inability." Which I think communicates more what we are saying.
I like Wilson's cart before the horse reasoning. "God gives eyes, and then we see. God gives life, and then we live. For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ (II Cor. 4:6)."
"Contrast this Biblical way of thinking with the alternative. I saw, and so God gave me eyes. I came alive, and so God gave me a resurrection. Light came forth from my heart, so God said, "Let there be light." This is obviously incorrect; it is God, Paul says, who commanded light to come out of darkness. It is God who commanded that it shine in our hearts."
And finally,
"The dilemma for evangelicals who want to deny total inability is this: either God must begin the resurrecting work of salvation because unsaved men are dead, or unsaved men are capable of beginning the process of their salvation on their own by means of saving faith. If the former, then we say welcome and shake hands. If the latter, then it follows that unsaved men can finish what they began, and we are confronted with a false gospel. In other words, there is no consistent stopping place between Reformed theology on the one hand, and a Pelagian theology on the other. Of course, plenty of evangelicals do not wind up in one camp or the other, but that is to be considered a triumph of inconsistency."
In my next post I will address the questions and points in your reply. -
Surely you don't mean to rehearse the age old atheist argument, "Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it."
God is immutable. That is His nature, as is holiness, perfection, righteousness, justice. Just as it is impossible for God to lie, as the Word teaches, it is impossible for Him to be mutable, unrighteous, et.
The truth is God can take on flesh, the Word became flesh, and hence fully human while being God, the Son of God, and not dimishing the Divine nature. You essentially asking if God can cease to be God. The answer is no. Jesus was both God and Man, 100% in each aspect. -
Being conceived in sin, as the Bible states gives a good idea how it is passed on, that being seminally. We know it isn't from the woman but the man, Adam, that we receive this nature and since it occurs at conception (conceived in sin) then we know it is seminally. So it can be assign a locality, that being the physical part of a human, namely the flesh. I understand my response is quite brief and not a treatise so as to answer every possible objection or question but it is a starting point for that isolated question in your post. -
I think all your mutability beliefs are in regard to the Father, sir.
skypair -
I do not believe we was born with sin. I believe we was born in a world of sin. If you say we was born a sinner then you are saying God is of sin. God made us to be rightess and just and to give him the glory. You cannot sin till you transgress the law. Other words break the law. A baby and a child cannot break it because they have not the knowledge of the law. The knowledge of the law is when you know to do good and do it not. Then it becomes sin and sin brings for death. Reformed baptist I read your post wrong it was late last night when I read it and I did read it wrong brother. I am sorry about that and I pray that you forgive me.
-
I believe you speak on things you do not know. -
I forgive you brother. We disagree on this point, and I believe the Scripture do indeed teach we are born in sin. May the Lord guide His elect to all the truth. -
From Acts 2:
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
Sounds like these folks have a choice, and Peter is trying to convince them to respond to the Gospel message. If Reformed theology is correct, why did Peter need to try to convince these folks, even plead with them, to choose the Good News? Either God will save them, regardless of what Peter says or doesn't say, or God won't give them the ability to understand and respond, so Peter is really just wasting his breath here, if these folks are unable to respond. It sure reads like Peter is putting the onus on the crowd, to make a decision themselves and that he expects them to understand what he is saying. -
Concerning what you called ridiculous because it goes against your expeirence, what is ridiculous to me is that someone as dedicated to Christ as you are would judge the Scripture by your own experiences. The Scripture declares that the natural man CANNOT understand the things of God because they are spiritual. Unless God has worked in you Les, the absolute miracle of being born again, which you have no power, no ability, and no chance to do on your own, you are still in your sins.
Now do not interpret this as me saying you are lost. I am not. I am saying that a man is born again by the will of God, NOT by the will of man, or the will of the flesh. The wind blows where IT wishes. And you hear the sound of it, but you don't know where it comes from or where it goes. So is EVERYONE who is born again.
And I say, unless a man is born again in this manner, he is not born again at all.
RB -
skypair
Page 4 of 8