ILUVLIGHT
Are you serious or what?
Too late for Jesus to have done any good!?
Well yes I was for a while.
Who Samuel? Samuel was Eli's son? Was he. This comes as some surprise. Enlighten me please. How is Sam the man Eli's son?
All those bibles you possess and you tell me that Sam was Eli's son! :cool:
1Sa 3:19 And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.
Well yes I was for a while. You see the responsibility was placed firmly on Eli, 13 For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons made themselves contemptible, and he failed to restrain them.
There, the sin of the father bearing directly on his sons. So your 'sins are not passed on' might be true but the consequences of them are the same. We don't need to die for our father's sins we have plenty of our own. Often worked in us by our family.
It was Eli's responsibility to grow his kids up properly.
I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about 1 Sam 3:13. Forever. Forever means always. Till the end of time.
Now the thing is that I do not like to use absolutes very much. If we say that sometime in the future God would repent of His decision, I do not like to say that either but just for now, and accepts Eli's family back. From the time God tells Eli to such a time as God repents those ones who die die for Eli's sins whether you like that or not. Unless you want to make 'forever' 'never'.
I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about 1 Sam 3:13
johnp.
ORIGINAL SIN---Exactly what is it according to CALVINISM?
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Wes Outwest, Jan 31, 2005.
Page 5 of 7
-
Archangel,
Your criticism of me of being a heretic, is a matter of perspective and your own personal persuasion. I believe you would tell Jesus to his face that He is heretic!
Scriptures say that "we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with principalities and powers". Sin is a power that keeps men enslaved. Jesus' atonement for sin broke that power of sin by paying the penalty that sin demands. It was the Penalty that sin demands that prevented ANY man who sins from having everlasting life. However, that Penalty has been paid in Full by the Christ, resulting in ALL of mankind having the same possibility of receiving everlasting life (salvation) by having FAITH in God. Faith cometh by hearing (knowledge, generally speaking), and Hearing by the word of God (specific knowledge). "For lack of knowledge my people perish", God!
Those who reject God, do not die for sin, because the penalty of sin has already been paid ONCE, FOR ALL! You cannot be penalized when the penalty has been paid. No man faces death because of sin! The only reason for man to face the second death is personal LACK OF FAITH in God!
Salvation is given to the individual who, while God's grace is present, comes to faith in God. Scriptures tell us that Eli's house certainly lacked faith in God. So, NO AMOUNT OF ATONEMENT could overcome the rejection of God by Eli's house. There is NO salvation for Eli's house because they reject God. No amount of atonement which covers ALL sins in ALL times has any effect on those who DO NOT HAVE FAITH, even though the sin that is atoned for by the Christ covered the sin the unfaithful commit.
ATONEMENT DOES NOT SAVE, else scriptures would say "for by atonement you are saved through faith". Scriptures do say that we are saved THROUGH FAITH! It is whosoever believeth in HIM, should not perish but HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. IT IS NEVER STATED IN SCRIPTURE THAT, "WHOSOEVER DOES NOT SIN SHALL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE", BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED! God knows that, so why would his word say that atonement saves?
THE WAGE FOR SIN IS DEATH? Paul was trying to break the mindset of the OLD Covenant dealing with Blood sacrifice! Under the OLD Covenant, sin brought death. But under the NEW covenant, FAITH brings LIFE. So, he said to them that the wage for sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life to those who have faith!
The ATONEMENT DOES NOT SAVE, FAITH IN THE ATONER DOES! -
Wes.
A gift.
johnp. -
Wes.
johnp. -
johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you really need to ask that?
God is the one who does the saving. He saves ONLY those who have faith IN HIM!.
It's kind of like you going to an event to pick up your kids, You do not take everyone elses kids, only yours! -
"Grace",
Explain how Grace saves anyone or anything! -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Scriptures say that "we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with principalities and powers". Sin is a power that keeps men enslaved. Jesus' atonement for sin broke that power of sin by paying the penalty that sin demands. It was the Penalty that sin demands that prevented ANY man who sins from having everlasting life. However, that Penalty has been paid in Full by the Christ, resulting in ALL of mankind having the same possibility of receiving everlasting life (salvation) by having FAITH in God. Faith cometh by hearing (knowledge, generally speaking), and Hearing by the word of God (specific knowledge). "For lack of knowledge my people perish", God!
Those who reject God, do not die for sin, because the penalty of sin has already been paid ONCE, FOR ALL! You cannot be penalized when the penalty has been paid. No man faces death because of sin! The only reason for man to face the second death is personal LACK OF FAITH in God!
Salvation is given to the individual who, while God's grace is present, comes to faith in God. Scriptures tell us that Eli's house certainly lacked faith in God. So, NO AMOUNT OF ATONEMENT could overcome the rejection of God by Eli's house. There is NO salvation for Eli's house because they reject God. No amount of atonement which covers ALL sins in ALL times has any effect on those who DO NOT HAVE FAITH, even though the sin that is atoned for by the Christ covered the sin the unfaithful commit.
ATONEMENT DOES NOT SAVE, else scriptures would say "for by atonement you are saved through faith". Scriptures do say that we are saved THROUGH FAITH! It is whosoever believeth in HIM, should not perish but HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. IT IS NEVER STATED IN SCRIPTURE THAT, "WHOSOEVER DOES NOT SIN SHALL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE", BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED! God knows that, so why would his word say that atonement saves?
THE WAGE FOR SIN IS DEATH? Paul was trying to break the mindset of the OLD Covenant dealing with Blood sacrifice! Under the OLD Covenant, sin brought death. But under the NEW covenant, FAITH brings LIFE. So, he said to them that the wage for sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life to those who have faith!
The ATONEMENT DOES NOT SAVE, FAITH IN THE ATONER DOES! </font>[/QUOTE]I must say that answering this post does go against my better judgement...oh well, here goes!
Wes wrote:
Your criticism of me of being a heretic, is a matter of perspective and your own personal persuasion. I believe you would tell Jesus to his face that He is heretic!
If you would kindly notice, I did not call you a heretic. I simply stated that your position was “Nothing short of heresy.” I believe the proverbial jury is still out on you being a heretic.
And now a word of caution: Do not presume to think you know what I would say to Jesus. This is an ad hominem argument. You direct your response “at the man” and not at the subject being discussed. This is a tool used by cowards, silly little people, and small children who resort to such phrases as “I know you are but what am I.” I would rather hope that you are not in this category and I am more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. It is up to you, now, to prove that you are not if the ilk who resort to name-calling. A word to the wise should be sufficient, now on to the bulk of the discussion.
You wrote:
I see the problem as being one of faith! Your religion is sin oriented, where mine is FAITH IN GOD centered!
This is as far as we need discuss. I think you have missed the point in that you are diminishing the entirety of how the Bible deals with sin. Of course my Religion is sin-oriented, I am, after all, a Christian and Christianity is a sin-oriented religion.
I would draw your attention, again, to 1 Corinthians 15:3: For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for OUR SINS in accordance with the scriptures.
It is obvious, according to the Apostle Paul, that our problem is ultimately a sin problem. If it is not, then why did Christ die for our sins? Why could He not just give us faith, as you suggest is the crux of Christianity? The answer is simple: The Bible, as a whole, sees our problem as a sin problem. From Adam and Eve to Noah to the children of Israel to us today, it is a SIN problem.
The truth of the matter is that humans have a very big sin problem and this is over and above any problem that we have with faith. Christ did not die to give everybody faith. He died to pay the price of sin.
You further wrote:
Sin is a power that keeps men enslaved. Jesus' atonement for sin broke that power of sin by paying the penalty that sin demands.
This is, of course, unbiblical. Christ did not die to pay a sin-demanded penalty. He died to pay a God-demanded penalty. Sin is not a power. Sure, Paul writes that we (Christians) were once slaves to sin. This is a matter of our state of being outside of God’s grace. When saved, a Christian becomes a slave to righteousness.
Because God is just, He cannot forgive sin. He can’t sweep it under the rug and act like it never happened. He demands a payment for it. Either a person pays for it themselves (in Hell) or Christ pays for it on the cross. These are the only two biblical options.
Perhaps, I have misunderstood your statements. If so, please forgive me and clarify your points. Until then, God bless.
The Archangel -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
God’s
Riches
At
Christ’s
Expense
Blessings,
The Archangel -
Let me remind you of your post Wes.
I said that would be right if the scripture said that but it does say, 'it is by grace you are saved'.
"Grace",
Explain how Grace saves anyone or anything!
Explain grace to you? No. I am more interested in the statement you made first.
'if it was the atonement that saved then it would read, it is by atonement you are saved', was either the truth or you made an error.
If you believe it to be true then good. If you would like to retract it then that is good also but don't try to ignore it.
He doesn't save anyone in your belief system but just enables one to be free of guilt. It is you that saves you by believing thus living up to the promise 'you shall be like God'.
It is still the same lie being peddled and it is the same lie that the world so loves to hear.
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. But that was only Paul.
johnp. -
Hi JohnP;
What do you assume was that judgement was the sentence Hell eternal because if it was then why was the Lord with Samuel.
1Sa 3:12 In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his house: when I begin, I will also make an end.
So this wasn't really forever because forever doesn't have an end. Not to mention that Samuel was Eli's son and yet he became a prophet. So either we have a Threat here by the Lord or the Lord Changed His mind about the judgement. The Prophets were anointed by the Lord so samuel must have been as well. Yes the Lord can change His mind. He's God He can do what ever He wants.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike -
Archangel,
Your cutsie little acronym does not answer the challenge to explain how grace saves anyone or anything. -
ILUVLIGHT.
What do you assume was that judgement, Hell eternal? Because if it was then why was the Lord with Samuel.
Much as I'd like to answer you as to why God was with Sam the man and not with Eli's house I am afraid I have no knowledge as to why God does anything except it will reveal His glory.
The fact that He loved Samuel and hated Eli's house is a fact. All the descendants of Eli suffered because of Eli and his irresponsiblity over the fathering of his children. His children were Hophni and Phinehas by the way.
What do you assume was that judgement, Hell eternal?
Everlasting punishment in the Lake of Fire when the doors open. Until then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 2 Peter 2:9.
Samuel was indeed anointed by the Lord to be a prophet.
Elkanah lay with Hannah his wife, and the LORD remembered her. 20 So in the course of time Hannah conceived and gave birth to a son. She named him Samuel, saying, "Because I asked the LORD for him." 1 Sam 1:19.
1Sa 3:19 And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.
Eli's house were anointed to serve at the sacrifices and Eli was the anointed prophet for Israel. What? All men serve the Lord so all men are anointed for their tasks.
Your problem remains. God tells Eli that those who die in Eli's house die judged, sinners unforgiven, because no sacrifice was to be offered for Eli's house because of Eli, whether you like that or not, because of Eli!
I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about 1 Sam 3:13
johnp. -
johnp,
-
Archangel,
There is no reason to repent from sins BEFORE one comes to faith in God! But once one has faith, the one is convicted by the Holy Spirit of his sins, when convicted one has the choice of confessing them or not confessing them. Sins unconfessed tend to cause one's faith in God to diminish to nothing more than lip-service! Sins confessed are removed from one's "record" through forgiveness.
Sins are not a factor in man's salvation! Sins are deeds, and all deeds, good and bad, will be judged by God and rewards given as merited. However one's salvation is not dependent upon ones deeds, but on FAITH ALONE! -
Wes.
I said that would be right if the scripture said that but it does say, 'it is by grace you are saved'.[/b]
Would you care to comment on this? :cool: I feel as if you want to avoid it for some reason. Also, if you have a moment, explain that thing about Hell being 'momentary' please.
PS 147:20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
Sounds like it man! :cool: Reprobation in the air.
You do not believe that he who began the work in you will see it through to completion. That's because you don't believe in yourself. Your hope is in you and that is condemned. Lake of Fire stuff.
PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel.
PS 147:20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
That's God's level playing field. He is a consuming fire.
I said that would be right if the scripture said that but it does say, 'it is by grace you are saved'.[/b] Would you care to comment on this? Thank you.
-
-
Yes I said that, AND...IF THE STATEMENT WERE TRUE, THE SCRIPTURES WOULD SAY IT IS. But alas, the statement is not true therefore the scriptures do not say "by the atonement you are saved! That was my point! The scriptures do say, to wit, While God is in HIS state of Grace toward HIS creation, we are saved through FAITH, and not of ourselves, Salvation is a gift of God, Not of works, lest any man should boast!
-
The only thing uneven about the playing field is that there are believers and unbelievers. There are no other kind of players on the field!
Jesus does save, but he saves ONLY those who have faith in him...believers! The rest have not dressed themselves in white robes, nor have they kept their lamps trimmed. They will not be ready for Jesus, and will not pass from death unto life eternal.
Because the wage for sin is death, and because Jesus died ONCE-FOR-ALL taking the wage for sin upon Himself, man no longer faces death for sin. NO MORE 2nd DEATH because of SIN! The only thing man faces the second death for is LACK OF FAITH IN GOD!
Yes, "it is appointed unto man ONCE TO DIE, then the Judgment". ALL men die, the Deeds of all men are tried, including sin. But the man does not die when his deeds are tried. Those whose names are not found in the book of life, are the ones who are cast into the lake of fire...the 2nd death! Jesus told us, also in John 3 that whoever believes in him is not judged, but whoever does not believe is judged by his unbelief....which is interpreted as LACK OF FAITH! -
I HAVE NEVER STATED AT ANY TIME WHATEVER THAT MAN IS HIS OWN SAVIOR!
You may be able to write in the ENGLISH language but you are sorely lacking in understanding thoughts expressed using it!
-
According to you, the Gospel message of Salvation through faith is a lie! The man who has faith in God, has nothing to hope for, because according to you johnp, the promise Jesus gave us regarding our salvation is a lie. There is no reason why one should own a Bible, let alone read it. There is no reason to go to church! There is no reason for the Christmas season! There is nothing in Easter to be happy about! There is no need of FAITH which is what the Apostles Preach!
Ah! But you'd be wrong johnp! you'd be wrong!
johnp, Get thee behind me SATAN!
Page 5 of 7