Isn't 'eternal life' also in the future, at least from our standpoint?
Bro. Dallas
OSAS? (An example)
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Petey Dragon, Sep 2, 2003.
Page 6 of 7
-
-
The Conditional promise is that we receive eternal life so long as we meet the condition.
The condition applies only to this natural life.
Once we have departed this natural life, the actual condition of our faith determines whether or not we spend eternity with the object of our faith or get cast into the lake of fire. If we have faith in God (Jesus), we are Saved from the lake of Fire, and enter into our eternal life's work of Praising God. If we do not have such faith in God, we are cast into that lake of fire. -
eternal life is conditioned only upon the Obedient manifestation of God in the flesh whose death in the flesh condemned sin. If eternal life depends upon man/men/woman/women/child/children, no person will receive it.
Bro. Dallas -
-
Jesus also said that all the Father has given him will come to him and that he will in no wise cast them out.
Brother,
Belief is different than faith, they are not one and the same.
Bro. Dallas -
-
Here is the first part of an article by Elder W.S. Craig:
Elder Craig explains the difference in faith and belief.
Bro. Dallas
-
Graig starts from a position of many assumptions including a given object of belief or unbelief. That is the wrong place to start! He does not discuss what belief or faith truly is in man. Only what it is in reference to one object of belief/faith.
We are talking about man and that which man must possess in order to have that which God gives. It should be clear to everyone, that God is not in need of any possessions similar to what are required of man because God is the creator of all that is. So, let us not discuss God, only God's created man. After we have established the essence of man, then we can discuss the object of man's belief/faith.
What is Belief?
What is Faith?
What is the "heart of man"?
Sorry to get so basic, but until we recognize what these things are and how they work, it is not possible to come to agreement...we've already gone that other route. -
I didn't know there is another thread topic discuss on osas. I just find out 2 days ago, because I saw the latest 20 posts list on the front of Baptistboard introduction.
Right now, my computer is still repairing. When my computer is fixed, I will discuss on osas this week.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen! -
Yelsew,
Maybe the thread on implications of brain research can help us to establish these two...what is faith/belief.
Bro.Dallas -
Doesn't make sense!
You obviously do not know the difference that you say exists, so end of discussion! -
How are belief and faith the same? What is wrong with Craig except that you disagree with him, I thought he provides an adequate distinction between the two.
We can end discussion if you wish, yet if we do this we will have succeeded only in failing. Failing because we have taken the position prior to establishing the issue and have set about to prove the position independent of the issue.
The issue is that you are arguing for an intellectual type of accepting Christ which makes faith and belief the same and I am arguing that faith is spiritual while belief(s) can be intellectually supported.
This is the issue we must deal with if we are going to be profitable, otherwise we will only advance as far as our heads can butt one against the other.
What basis do you propose belief and faith are the same? Show why you disagree with Craig, or end the discussion, any one of these is your choice to make.
I agree with Craig not because he is a Primitive Baptist nor because he agrees with me, but because I am in agreement with his argument showing the distinction between belief and faith.
Faith is what is imparted to the individual at the moment the Holy Spirit quickens him, belief is something occurring in the quickened individual upon hearing the Gospel. One is a work of the Holy Spirit alone the other can be influenced by the intellect.
This is the heart of our disagreement, we have come much farther than we have ever been before in our discussion, why would it be of any benefit for us to end discussion?
God Bless
Bro. Dallas
[ September 15, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ] -
First I did not disagree with Craig, but I did say that his discussion starts with a lot of assumptions that are not necessary to the discussion of belief and faith.
The question I have to ask you then, is it possible to have faith without belief? or Can faith exist without belief?
As I said, the object of belief/faith is not necessary to arrive at the definition/relationship of either. In other words, it is not necessary to discuss God in order to discuss belief. Nor is it necessary to discuss God to discuss faith. Craig's whole discussion is on the basis of a specific belief or faith in God. That is not necessary to arrive at agreement as to what belief or faith are.
You have in the past stated in similar words that man is not capable of having belief or faith without it first being given to him by God. Obviously you have not considered the result of God's creative work. In that work He gave man the ability and the capability to believe and have faith.
In the past you have stated that sin disabled that God given ability/capability in man. I am asking you to prove that idea, and you have consistantly dodged doing so, even into this discussion.
You imply now in the latest post that faith can only come as the result of the Holy Spirit's influence. I do not agree except where the object of faith is spiritual belonging to the Deity we call God.
Faith need have God as its object in order to be faith! Man is capable of having faith in anything that man believes or hopes for, but which man cannot see, feel, touch, etc. The sick for example have faith that they will get well. That applies to those who believe in God and those who do not!
So then, Can we agree that man does truly have the ability to believe? Can we agree that man has the ability to have faith, whether or not God is the object of that belief or faith? I suspect your response will be NO! because if you say yes, then there goes the total depravity thing with its implication of mans inability to believe and have faith. -
Yelsew,
Here is the second part of Craig's article, I think it also pertains to the questions you have asked me.
I will answer them at a later time in my own words. If you will go back to all the times that I have dodged the question [or refused the burden of proof] of the validity of Total Depravity, you will note that I have not refused this burden. Instead, I have shown from scripture the truthfulness of how that man has fallen from his original creation.
Can faith exist without belief? yes. But this answer is much more complicated than yes or no. It involves asking and answering what you mean by what the person having faith believes. The article by W S Craig is below, I will later offer scripture to show the differences in a persons faith and their beliefs.
Bro. Dallas -
Frogman, Why can't you answer simple questions in your own words?
The writings of others that you post are so verbose as to make them uninteresting to read. I do not want to have dialog with Craig, he is not here to answer questions nor to give counterpoint or further explanation.
If you cannot answer with your own words, that is pretty good indication that you do not have a position on the topic. -
Yelsew,
I do have position and you do have a position. The problem is that we are never going to get anywhere because we each have this position.
I don't understand...'why can't you answer with your own words' I have done this all along. The difference is I do not make up definitions to suit my position.
In this debate, if that is what it is, your position is that a child of God can lose their faith and be lost, my position is they cannot. Now I will give you one passage to show why I believe this to be true.
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Bro. Dallas -
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas -
Originally posted by Yelsew:
I am sorry you think my posting of Craig's article was inappropriate or too verbose.
Bro. Dallas -
-
The basis of this discussion is whether or not a child of God can lose their faith and find themselves lost again. Because this is the basis of the discussion God is central to the discussion if we are to arrive at any conclusion. The problem is that we must determine how we are going to establish why it is impossible for a child of God to lose this position. In my own words I have stated the nature of the gift of God is eternal. It is eternal life therefore its nature is determined by God and cannot be changed.Click to expand...
Yes, the Gift that God gives for our belief in His son is eternal life. God will not in any way change that gift it is forever. However the gift is given to those who have that belief in Jesus when this natural life is ended. Those who believe in Jesus will not be judged, because they have passed from death into eternal life with Christ. Those who do not believe in Jesus when this life is ended will be judged because they do not have that essential ingrededient that separates them from the unbelievers. The ingredient is belief in Jesus. Regardless of whether or not they once had that belief while living this life, if they do not have it when this life is ended, they will not receive the Gift of eternal life.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You have in the past stated in similar words that man is not capable of having belief or faith without it first being given to him by God. Obviously you have not considered the result of God's creative work. In that work He gave man the ability and the capability to believe and have faith.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In the past you have stated that sin disabled that God given ability/capability in man. I am asking you to prove that idea, and you have consistantly dodged doing so, even into this discussion.Click to expand...
If man has no ability to believe or have faith, none of man's achievements would exist. God, in creating man, gave man all the things that man would ever need to do what God said he should do. Man simply uses those capabilities to do "other than God's will". When man sinned, it was in accordance with God's plan for man. God made the garden with the trees in the center, God made the serpent, and lucifer, and the angels that followed Lucifer. The serpent and lucifer perhaps are the same entity. God cast Lucifer and his band of demons to the earth, the very place where God put man. There is no scripture that says that God altered his created man when he expelled them from the Garden. God cursed the earth so that man would have to toil to survive. He cursed the woman so that she would experience pain in childbirth. Adam did not know the meaning of work, nor did Eve know the meaning of childbirth but they found out. But there is no other scripture dealing with changes in man from Adam and Eve to now. All other scriptures dealing with man deal with the spiritual abilities that God placed in man from Adam and Eve. Sin corrupted those abilities such that man lost close fellowship with God who is spirit. Otherwise, man has not changed from Adam and Eve to modern 21st century man.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You imply now in the latest post that faith can only come as the result of the Holy Spirit's influence. I do not agree except where the object of faith is spiritual belonging to the Deity we call God.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Faith need have God as its object in order to be faith! Man is capable of having faith in anything that man believes or hopes for, but which man cannot see, feel, touch, etc. The sick for example have faith that they will get well. That applies to those who believe in God and those who do not!Click to expand...</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[James 1:23-25] Anyone who listens to the Word (James says "anyone who hears") and takes no action is like someone who looks at his own features in a mirror and, [24] once he has seen what he looks like, goes off and immediately forgets it.[25] But anyone who looks steadily at the perfect law of freedom and keeps to it, not listening and forgetting, but putting it into practice-will be blessed in every undertaking.Click to expand...</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[2 Tim 2:3-8] Bear with your share of difficulties, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. [4] No one on active service involves himself in the affairs of civilian life, because he must win the approval of the man who enlisted him; [5] or again someone who enters an athletic contest wins only by competing in the sports-a prize can be won only by competing according to the rules; [6] and again, it is the farmer who works hard that has the first claim on any crop that is harvested. [7] Think over what I have said, and the Lord will give you full understanding. [8] Remember the gospel that I carry, `Jesus Christ risen from the dead, sprung from the race of David';Click to expand...[Luke 12:41-48] Peter said, `Lord, do you mean this parable for us, or for everyone?' [42] The Lord replied, `Who, then, is the wise and trustworthy steward whom the master will place over his household to give them at the proper time their allowance of food? [43] Blessed that servant if his master's arrival finds him doing exactly that. [44] I tell you truly, he will put him in charge of everything that he owns. [45] But if the servant says to himself, "My master is taking his time coming," and sets about beating the menservants and the servant-girls, and eating and drinking and getting drunk, [46] his master will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not know. The master will cut him off and send him to the same fate as the unfaithful. [47] `The servant who knows what his master wants, but has got nothing ready and done nothing in accord with those wishes, will be given a great many strokes of the lash. [48] The one who did not know, but has acted in such a way that he deserves a beating, will be given fewer strokes. When someone is given a great deal, a great deal will be demanded of that person; when someone is entrusted with a great deal, of that person even more will be expected.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So then, Can we agree that man does truly have the ability to believe? Can we agree that man has the ability to have faith, whether or not God is the object of that belief or faith? I suspect your response will be NO! because if you say yes, then there goes the total depravity thing with its implication of mans inability to believe and have faith.Click to expand...I am sorry you think my posting of Craig's article was inappropriate or too verbose. [Tear]
Bro. Dallas [flower]Click to expand...
OSAS is TRUE, but only for those who come to faith and retain that faith through to the death of this natural life. It is when one passes from natural death having faith in God, that one enters into life in Jesus Christ. Without such faith, one faces the Judgement of God, and the second death of the Lake of Fire. That is what scriptures say!
Page 6 of 7