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Featured OSAS Trap

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Cathode, Oct 22, 2024.

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  1. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    One of the most pernicious doctrines is “once saved always saved”.

    It was always known that serious/mortal sin cut a soul off from God and life.

    Many holding to OSAS develop rationalisations of sin and become mired in sin, they don’t treat it seriously. “ I’m saved by the blood already, I’ll just say sorry and move on “ won’t cut it with mortal sin. They compound their sin and blindness.

    Mortal sins require confession and absolution from an Apostolic Successor as Jesus ministers and ambassadors. Mortal sin estranges a soul from God and requires Christ’s ambassadors to reestablish the relationship, that’s their job.

    The breath of Life Jesus imparted to The Apostles for the forgiveness of sin is imparted to sinners who have died because of mortal sin.

    “Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” John 20:21-23

    Jesus sent the Apostles as the Father had sent Him with power to forgive sin.

    "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.“

    The Apostles in their successors do judge the faithful through ministry of reconciliation, that by confession, they judge forgiven or not forgiven.

    “In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance…when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord.” Origen, Homilies on Leviticus, 2:4 (A.D. 248).

    ‘God is not mocked.’ God cannot be mocked, nor deceived, nor deluded by any deceptive cunning. Yea, he sins the more, who, thinking that God is like man, believes that he evades the penalty of his crime if he has not openly admitted his crime…I entreat you, beloved brethren, that each one should confess his own sin, while he who has sinned is still in this world, while his confession may be received, while the satisfaction and remission made by the priests are pleasing to the Lord?” Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 28-29 (A.D. 251).

    “These are capital sins, brethren, these are mortal.” Pacian of Barcelona, Penance, 4 (A.D. 385).

    “For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests; since by their agency these rites are celebrated, and others nowise inferior to these both in respect of our dignity and our salvation. For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels. For it has not been said to them, ‘Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.’ They who rule on earth have indeed authority to bind, but only the body: whereas this binding lays hold of the soul and penetrates the heavens; and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, ‘Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?’ What authority could be greater than this? ‘The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?’ But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son.” John Chrysostom, The Priesthood, 3:5 (A.D. 387).

    “All mortal sins are to be submitted to the keys of the Church and all can be forgiven; but recourse to these keys is the only, the necessary, and the certain way to forgiveness. Unless those who are guilty of grievous sin have recourse to the power of the keys, they cannot hope for eternal salvation. Open your lips, them, and confess your sins to the priest. Confession alone is the true gate to Heaven.” Augustine, Christian Combat (A.D. 397).

    “Just as in the Old Testament the priest makes the leper clean or unclean, so in the New Testament the bishop and presbyter binds or looses not those who are innocent or guilty, but by reason of their office, when they have heard various kinds of sins, they know who is to be bound and who loosed.” Jerome, Commentary on Matthew, 3:16,19 (A.D. 398).

    Binding and loosing Authority means that Jesus confirms in Heaven the judgement of His Apostolic servants on Earth, Jesus granted Authority to the Apostolic servants to forgive sin in His Name.

    This is a great joy and gift to the Church, that those who have committed mortal sins can be restored to life and Grace.
    They don’t arrive at Judgement without already having received the Apostolic Judgement of His ambassadors on Earth.
     
  2. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    “Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5:31

    [​IMG]

    Those who have fallen into sin can go to Jesus through His ambassadors, just as we confess our ailments to a doctor to receive his curative prescription. We don’t hide our embarrassing ailments from earthly doctors, so nor should we hide our spiritual ailments from Jesus spiritual doctors.

    Jesus hears your confession through the priest and forgives your sins through the priest.

    Once you hear the Apostolic Judgement passed on Earth it is bound in Heaven, you are forgiven of all your sins.

    The Apostles judge all the tribes of Israel as Jesus said, their thrones are established by Him.
    The Father gave all Judgement to Jesus, and Jesus gave this power to His Apostles to forgive sin in His Name.
    “ Just as The Father sent Me, so am I now sending you “.

    All Christians who have committed mortal sins should make use of this gift of Jesus to receive the Life of Grace back in their souls.
     
  3. xlsdraw

    xlsdraw Active Member

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    Once Born Again, Always Born Again. God don't make mistakes.

    You Catholics should spew False Doctrine.
     
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  4. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    Makes as much sense as “ Once healthy, Always healthy.”

    God doesn’t, but we certainly do make mistakes, and continue to do.

    We have been saying the same Apostolic teaching for 2000 years.
     
  5. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    “My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.” James 5:19-20

    James is talking to the brethren here, that they can fall away from the truth and go into sin and death. James certainly isn’t assuming no one can be lost or not fall away from the truth and end in sin and death.

    Once saved, Always saved is false, it’s deadly.
     
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  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    So the Holy Spirit takes the time to bring some to their salvation to what end, so they can break it, throw it in the garbage, undo the effort of Gods grace??? You Catholics have some strange beliefs:confused:
     
  7. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Active Member

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    It's a bitter argument, one of the few in the Scripture that I skip around and really don't want to ruffle the feathers.

    The truth is that osas came from the 5 pts. of Calvinism. With the Baptists holding such deep roots in Calvinism, well you get the picture.

    One of the strongest refutes of osas is Ezekiel 18:24, and there are many more.

    This is the saved man turning from Gods way, eventually losing his faith altogether, going to the grave in that condition. It is a physical and spiritual death.

    "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
     
  8. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    If you don’t believe James here, get a black marker and blot out his words from your Bible.

    You certainly don’t believe what he is teaching that the brethren can fall away from the truth and into sin and death.

    James isn’t teaching once saved always saved, that’s for sure.

    Why would it cover a multitude of sins for the one who rescues a fallen from the truth member of the Church.

    Why would James even countenance the idea that a member of the Church could fall away from truth and end in sin and death in the first place.

    Once saved Always saved is false, unscriptural and deadly.
     
  9. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    You are right in that the reason most Baptists will say they are Calvinists is to differentiate themselves from free will Baptists. Problem is OSAS is not the same as the perseverance of the saints. In 1654, under Cromwell, the Parliament asked Puritan leaders to come up with a statement of what exactly should be tolerated in those calling themselves Christians. There were 16 items with number 14 being this: That to continue in any known sin upon what pretense or principle soever is damnable.
    Perseverance of the saints means that someone truly saved will indeed persevere in the faith and continue in sanctification and pursuit of holiness.

    Reformed theology teaches that justification is forensic and by faith alone. But it is John Owen who said "a faith that is never alone". When you are born again or regenerated, an actual change does take place and you really are a new creature. Thus the demand that a holy life be lived is proper. Owen went around and around with Catholics on this subject and his conclusion was that based on reality he would put up Protestant practice and living against Catholics any time. And I agree that is still true. Everyone knows that. Just look at the Simpson's cartoon of Catholic and Protestant Heaven.

    I think OSAS was meant to just say that since God initiates and provides salvation in the first place, it is illogical to assume he will drop what He himself started. And a lot of Baptists are worried that the Reformed perseverance of the saints gets too close to adding works to justification. It has been perverted to mean a license to sin by some. But everyone who believes OSAS as a theology is not living a loose life so you have to be careful.
     
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  10. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    Don’t skip around it man, souls are at stake. People are in pernicious delusions out there.

    I remember a guy who was cheating on his wife, but said it was ok because he was born again, couldn’t lose his salvation.

    People need to be warned. The drama of salvation is playing out right now.

    I have a terrible dread for these people, they are in for a very rude shock.

    If we don’t warn people, their blood is on us as the Lord says.

    Ruffle feathers for thine own safeties sake, if not just for the love neighbour.
     
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  11. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Active Member

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    In my opinion the damnable heresy is the "unconditional election." It is at the very center and is as fake as as a $4 bill.

    OSAS is true in the sense that if one holds fast to faith in Christ till the end, they can claim it. But there is the condition!

    Paul makes it very easy to understand.

    Heb. 3:14

    "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end";
     
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  12. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    The problem is venial sins lead to mortal sins, Catholics understand this. You don’t have to be living a loose life to be accumulating Judgement and be disqualified on the finish line.

    Many are in the habit of absolving themselves in delusion.

    God is faithful, He will give the free gift by Grace, but man can squander it and fall away by sin.
    This is why Jesus gave a very practical solution allowing for our human frailty, Confession to an Apostolic Successor.
    He knew that sheep were stupid and prone to stray so He founded the Apostolic ministry for the forgiveness of sin, Apostolic Shepherds.
     
  13. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    You need to know what is meant by unconditional. What was supposed to be emphasized was that there is nothing special, in those who get saved, no special virtue or quality that moved God to save that person over another. Just like Israel was not a special people versus other peoples. Even at that, if you read Calvinist writers they point out that doing all the good you know to do, studying the Word, observing the sacraments, attending preaching - are all things that will assist you in coming to Christ. Remember, Calvinist theology is a good set of guardrails, but a poor box. Don't get boxed in either for or against.
     
  14. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    You obviously never have read the Puritans. To them all sins were potentially mortal. I think it was Watson who talked about putting things before God said that people have hunted themselves into Hell!
    Indeed true, and a good portion of reformed literature discusses this. I would add that just as many have someone else, like a Catholic priest do the same thing.
    Of course this is where we differ and I don't know why they would allow you to come on a Baptist site except that you continually prove why there needed to be a Reformation and why there will never be any kind of ecumenical reconciliation.
     
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  15. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    Ambrose lays it out almost as well as John Chrysostom and note their Scriptural interpretation matches.

    “The Church holds fast its obedience on either side, by both retaining and remitting sin; heresy is on the one side cruel, and on the other disobedient; wishes to bind what it will not loosen, and will not loosen what it has bound, whereby it condemns itself by its own sentence. For the Lord willed that the power of binding and of loosing should be alike, and sanctioned each by a similar condition…Each is allowed to the Church, neither to heresy, for this power has been entrusted to priests alone. Rightly, therefore, does the Church claim it, which has true priests; heresy, which has not the priests of God, cannot claim it. And by not claiming this power heresy pronounces its own sentence, that not possessing priests it cannot claim priestly power. And so in their shameless obstinacy a shamefaced acknowledgment meets our view. Consider, too, the point that he who has received the Holy Ghost has also received the power of forgiving and of retaining sin. For thus it is written: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit: whosesoever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them, and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained.’ So, then, he who has not received power to forgive sins has not received the Holy Spirit. The office of the priest is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and His right it is specially to forgive and to retain sins. How, then, can they claim His gift who distrust His power and His right?” Ambrose, Concerning Repentance, I:7-8 (A.D. 388).
     
  16. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Active Member

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    Every Calvinist I've ever met has a different way of explaining "unconditional election."

    The bottom line is if God has chosen you as His elect you had no choice in the matter, it was not your decision, so you can't lose your salvation because God chose it for you. You have no responsibility for keeping your salvation.

    The end result is OSAS.
     
    #16 Charlie24, Oct 22, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2024
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Nothing new about that:

    13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous [sins]; Let them not have dominion over me: Then shall I be upright, And I shall be clear from great transgression. Ps 19
     
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  18. Cathode

    Cathode Well-Known Member

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    I think it’s the iron sharpens iron thing or I’m greatly loved, but it’s far safer to assume the former.

    Never say never Dave, I still hold out hope.
     
  19. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. It is possible to logically get to a point where you come to the conclusion, based on God initiating your salvation, that you have no responsibility for keeping your salvation. But that is not what Calvinistic theology teaches. You keep your salvation, in that you persist in following Christ because as a new creature that is what you do. The Puritan warnings about the need to pursue holiness and follow Christ are used by a born again believer to assist him in doing just that. That's why in Owen's famous work "On the Mortification of Sin" he starts out by stating that this is a work for believers only. But, the point Cathode is raising on this thread is a true concern, not that the doctrine of OSAS is false, but there is a common misuse of it by some.

    I would say if your understanding of Calvinistic theology leads you to think that OSAS means you don't live a Christian life, pursuing Christ and avoiding sin, then please, do not become a Calvinist. But you need to know that your understanding of the doctrine is at fault, not the doctrine itself.
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Why would anyone go to some sinful man hoping he can forgive sin when they can go to our sinless Lord and know their sins are forgiven?
     
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