(THE FOLLOWING IS A CONTINUATION OF A RABBIT TRAIL SKAN AND i STARTED ON ANOTHER THREAD...I'M HOPING TO CONTINUE IT HERE. )
1. Are you saying these verses are saying that God graciously looks over the sins of those non-jewish nations in the OT who did not turn to the one true God? If so, This sounds sketchy.
Ok, Skan, I've been out of town. And some of these ideas were a bit new to me...So here goes:
1. I recognize the reference to Romans 3, but is not the Old Testament very clear that God Judges actual sins, not only those of unbelief? Perhaps you or someone else, or a web link could further explain this idea that God does not Judge people for their sins, but only for their unbelief.
--> In addition, I have heard some on this board go so far as to say Christ's Atonement actually did pay for the sins of every man and woman, and was applied to them, such that those who go to hell are ONLY going there for their sin of unbelief, not their other sins. (would you agree or disagree with this?)
(#2 in next thread)
Ot salvation topics
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 12strings, Aug 13, 2012.
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2. If you say God judges these OT nations based on their rejections his natural revelation...but saves those Israelites who respond to his specific revelation, which he withholds from those pagan nations...is this not a "choosing" of God to provide a way of salvation to one group of people, while not revealing the way of salvation to another group?
Second, would you not say that the mustard seed of faith needed for salvation must be faith in a specific thing, or person/being? Applying what you have said to today: If a person grows up in a remote place on earth and never hears of Christ, but looks at nature and beleives some God made it, are you saying God will credit that faith as righteousness? Or must they hear and beleive the Gospel of Jesus? -
First, allow me to commend you for a very profitable and cordial discussion. I get the impression that you approach these matters with a true intent to learn about other perspectives even if you will never agree with them. That is to be commended. I will do my best to return in kind. :thumbsup:
Even Calvin affirmed as much when he wrote:
"As no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief." - John Calvin
I believe in what is sometimes referred to as 'provisional atonement,' which means exactly what it sounds like it would mean. Atonement is provided for ALL, but only those who BELIEVE benefit.
Allow for an analogy. Suppose their is a deserted island with 100 shipwrecked passengers and a man is sent to rescue them but only takes a raft able to carry 10 preselected passengers back with him because he knows none of the people will want to come back with him due to the pleasures of the Island and he will have to effectually convince 10 to come with him. Can that man honestly say he has provided the means for everyone to be rescued? No. He has only provided the means for 10 to come back. But suppose he had a boat that would hold all 100 passengers. In that case he would be providing the means for ALL to be saved. The idea that Christ paid just so much for just so many is not biblical, nor is it supported by classic Calvinistic teaching.
More later... got to run! -
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It's like this. If I commit a crime and the judge pays my fine and asks me only to apologize for my offense in order to be freed, but I refuse to apologize and instead rebelliously curse him instead; do I say that I'm going to prison because of the original crime, or because I refused to apologize and cursed the judge? All of those obviously contributed to my going to prison, but once the fine had been paid and the offer proffered, the real reason for my imprisonment became my response to that offer, not the fine owed for the original crime. Make sense? -
2. What would you say to my #2 OP above (post #2).
3. If I may jest a bit, here's a summary of a typical post by SKAN:
-Begin with response to previous post.
-Add a quote from a Calvinist who seems to be disagreeing with Calvinism.
-Tell a hypothetical story that supports my point.
-End with "Make sense?"
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The sinner is gulity before god , as the lotrd had adam be the represenattive for all to come after Him, so ALl were found guilty and condemned in him...
That is why we MUST have a saviour, for even IF one could keep law perfectly, STILL would be judged for being found by God in Adam!
For its NOT rejecting jesus that damns one, but by the fact are born and act as sinners, for ONE sin causes the wrath of god to abide on one...
For if its "merely" the relection of yeshua that condemns us, why even send forth missionaries, wouldn't "ignorance be bliss?" -
Yeshua1, you never fail to misrepresent scripture;
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Does this verse say we are dead in Adam? NO, it says in Adam "all die". That is a very different thing. You have to be alive to "die".
Besides this, this verse is speaking of physical death only, not spiritual. The entire 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians deals with the resurrection of our physical bodies, not spiritual death.
So, as usual, you completely misrepresent what the scriptures actually say. -
in jesus, ALL are made spiritually alive...
THAT is what the Bible teaches! -
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." (The "lost" seems to refer to the entire world of lost humanity, not just the lost elect.)
John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.'"
Acts 2:21: "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Acts 17:30: "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."
Romans 5:6: "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly."
2 Corinthians 5:14-15: "For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again."
1 Timothy 2:3-4: "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
1 Timothy 2:5-6: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time."
1 Timothy 4:10: "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."
Titus 2:11: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."
2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
1 John 2:2: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (Note the distinction between "ours" and "the whole world.")
1 John 4:14: "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world."
Let me explain it this way. High Calvinists think God limits those who are saved with 3 points in TULIP, where as moderate Calvinists would say it is only limited by two points...
A High Calvinist would say those who are saved are limited by "U", "L" and "I". God preselects a particular number (U), only atones for those chosen (L), and irresistibly calls them (I).
A Moderate Calvinist would say those who preselected (U), are irresistibly called (I), but the atonement is available to all, if they were willing. It is only limited in its application (L). Make sense? :laugh:
Here are some more quotes, so as to be consistent with my presentation:
Answers to Three Common Questions
1. If Christ died for those who go to hell, what benefit have they from His death?
Answer: "We may as well ask, What good did the bitten Israelites get from the brazen serpent to which they refused to look? None, of course, but God got the glory of being a God generous enough to provide for them."
2. If satisfaction has been made for all, how can any go to hell?
Answer: "Though God has provided atonement for all, He has also stipulated that none get the good of it, except through repentance and faith. Deliverance from doom was not contingent on the atonement itself but on the reception of it. Men can starve in the presence of a free feast, if they refuse to partake of it."
3. Why would God have Christ die for those whom He, in His omniscience, knew would never receive His provision?
Answer: "Why did God richly endow the angels who subsequently sinned, when He knew they would not use His gifts to their everlasting good? Why did He bestow valuable gifts on our first parents, to be employed for their and our advantage, when He knew they would not so employ them? Why did He send Noah to preach to people He knew would not receive His message? And why did He send the prophets to Israel, when He knew they would continue in their apostasy? There is such a thing as the divine benevolence." -
Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. John 9:41
Mt.13:12: “For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but to whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away.” If we are teachable, it is profitable, “more will be given.” The condition of increase is by our hearts openness. If you do not respond correctly what light you have been given will be taken away. He who lays hold of truth and uses it will receive more enlightenment, but he who refuses to appropriate truth will lose even the understanding of truth he once had been given. But if someone does not live up to the light given there will be enough to judge them. -
main difference is that high sees jesus paying the sins death for JUST Hi9s elect, while Mods seeing that His death paid for all , but ONLY effectual towards the Elect!