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Featured Partial Preterism 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by prophecy70, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    And just what do you think you are going to say that you haven't already said? Sure, you have demonstrated that you know history quite well. You've also demonstrated that you don't know how to read prophecies because you are stuck in your view that this MUST be future. You seem to think that I only use DeMar, Gentry, et al as my source material, when the Bible itself is all the proof I need.

    We do not use the same hermeneutical method. I try to see how the original audience would understand these prophecies, and you try to interpret them through the idea that everything must be in the future. Whether you want to call it a "draw" or not, I see no point in going over the same old arguments with you again. It's like the definition of insanity - doing the same thing again and expecting different results.
     
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  2. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    The events of Daniel 11 were such an accurate description of the abominations of Anthiochus that critical theologians assert that Daniel was written after the events.

    The Thessalonians were obviously confused about the comings of Jesus that Paul had to explain in detail in 2T2 that the final coming for resurrection, vindication & judgment would be preceded by the destruction of the temple as prophesied by Jesus in his Olivet prophecy. Paul has already explained, & makes himself clear. The final coming, will at an unknown date some time after the destruction of the then existing temple.

    Note 1T2 -
    14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans,
    15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,
    16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

    As for Ezekiel's temple, that prophecy was made during the Babylonian captivity. THe Israelites were being encouraged to rebuild the temple on their return, and to be faithful to their LORD. Read ch 43 which describes animal sacrifices as sin offerings. NOT memorial offerings as some contributors have claimed.
    43:10 “Now let them put their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far away from Me, and I will dwell in their midst forever.
    10 “Son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern.
    11 “And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple
    and its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, its entire design and all its ordinances, all its forms and all its laws. Write it down in their sight, so that they may keep its whole design and all its ordinances, and perform them.
    ......
    18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord GOD: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it.
    19 ‘You shall give a young bull for a sin offering to the priests
    , the Levites, who are of the seed of Zadok, who approach Me to minister to Me,’ says the Lord GOD.​

    Ezekiel's temple was obviously an idealised description of the temple to be built on their return from exile. A future third temple for the offering of sacrifices for sin would utterly violate the FINISHED sacrificial death of our LORD Jesus Christ.

    Eze. 43:10 “Now let them put their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far away from Me, and I will dwell in their midst forever.
    Contrast this with -
    Rev. 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
    .....
    22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.​
     
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  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I keep saying the same things because they're the unchangeable TRUTH.

    The Bible does NOT support preterism whatsoever. It says all those prophesied events are FUTURE, from the time they were written. Thus, you're using outside sources for your eisegesis.

    Jesus preserved His words for a reason - to present them to US, & all the others between His earthly time & now. While He said MILLIONS of words in his 33 earthly years, He chose only certain portions of them to be preserved. And that's because they are still very important now.

    And I stand on the material I, & others have presented that PROVE preterism false. The example of proving Nero was not the "beast" stands out. The ONLY logical conclusion that can be made when comparing Nero's life to the Scriptural criteria for the "beast" is that Nero was NOT the beast! Anything else is a denial of Scripture, history, or both.

    I'm hoping the HOLY SPIRIT opens your eyes so you can see just how false preterism is!
     
  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Please remember, it's the ORTHODOX JEWS who intend to build a new temple. They don't believe Jesus is Messiah, & they still live under the Old Covenant as best they can.
     
  5. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Read Hebrews - the OC was FINISHED at Calvary. Since Calvary "Orthodox Jews" believe in the LORD Jesus Christ as Messiah.
     
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  6. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    The point is that each of us keep saying the same things because each of us are fully convinced of what we perceive to be true. It's been obvious from the beginning that we are not going to agree. Neither of us have anything new to say, and repeating what we've already said doesn't add to the discussion. Therefore, I am going to lift the needle off this broken record as there is no point discussing this with you any further. Maybe I'll catch up with you sometime on a different topic. I do wish you all the best.
     
    #106 Lodic, Mar 28, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
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  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Yyeeaahh, RRIIGGHHTT !
    And they also observe Christmas & Easter!

    Actually, the OC was "officially" ended at the "Last Suppper" when Jesus introduced the NC. Before that, He saved many people by His own authority.
     
  8. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Well, I'm gonna continue to denounce preterism as false as often as it appears in any discussion board of which I'm a mamber. Besides being false, it's simply illogical in the face of indisputable FACTS. Meanwhile, may God bless you & yours, and may He open your eyes to the falsehood of preterism.
     
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  9. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    My point is that those Jews who rejected their Messiah (Jesus) ceased to be Jews - as Stephen declared in the power of the Holy Spirit - "uncircumcised."
    And
    Israelites & Jews were saved down the centuries by a living faith in the LORD, as Abraham was, & the many proselytes also who trusted in the LORD.
    As Peter preached -
    22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
    Those claiming to be "Orthodox Jews" while rejecting their Messiah, Jesus Christ, have denied Abraham, Moses & Jesus & the Gospel of salvation. They are clinging to the Old Covenant long superceded -
    Heb. 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

    8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[fn] I will remember no more.”[fn]
    13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
     
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  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Those people are still Jews by ancestry. 'Tis they who intend to build a new temple & re-institute animal sacrifice, etc. But God intends to re-unite them with the rest of Israel and save them from an invasion of a coalition of their enemies, & show them their error in rejecting Jesus. Why is God gonna do this? Because He told Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob He would. he also told David that a descendant of Dave's would always be ruling over at least some Israelis.

    The individual Jew or Israeli must still believe in Jesus & come to Him, same as anyone else, to be saved.

    But my point is, the Orthodox Jews still intend to build a new temple in Jerusalem, and they'll do so so the "abomination of desolation" can be committed in it.
     
  11. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Which already happened in the 2nd.
     
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  12. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Where did he say he will show them their error in rejecting Jesus in a rebuilt 3rd temple?
     
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  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    No, it didn't. Cannot be found in history.
     
  14. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    No-one knows their full ancestry - the records were destroyed in AD 70. John & Jesus made it very clear that Abrahamic ancestry accompanied by rejection of God, his ways & his Messiah were worthless. Mat. 3, John 8.

    Do European Ashkenazi Jews have a valid claim on the OC promises, having rejected the Messiah? And are the European Jews who control the nation they call "Israel" show the behaviour of true Israelites in their Apartheid treatment of the Palestinians?

    As I understand what I read, the Orthodox Jews reject the murderous policy of the European settlers. They are still waiting in exile for their Messiah - who, of course, can be found when they turn to Jesus in repentance & faith. No need to wait - he's come!

    And THE descendant of David, aka the LORD Jesus Christ lives and reigns.

    Are you suggesting that the intention of unbelieving Jews to build a new temple to offer OC sacrifices in defiance of Christ's sacrifice at Calvary is required for prophecy to happen?!?!?

    continued
     
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    That's an entirely-separate event.
     
  16. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    If we look in Scripture for a third, yet future, temple ...

    Ezekiel's prophecy of the temple to be built on their return from Babylon was built reluctantly rather than commitment in the time of Zerubbabel, Joshua, Haggai & Zechariah. It was made all glorious only by Jesus recognising it as "my Father's house." Sadly it was a house used as a market & a robbers' den. And Jesus scheduled it for utter destruction, after all the abominations prophesied took place. (AD 70)

    Those abominations are not recorded in Scripture or to historical satisfaction as there were no prophets in Jerusalem to record them - they'd fled as Jesus warned them. And Scripture was written before the destruction. We just have to believe the prophecy rather than scoff at those who do believe. (2 Peter 3)

    Rev. 11 is obviously the Jerusalem temple that was destroyed in AD 70.

    2T2 is a prophecy concerning the abuse & destruction of the temple that would take place before Jesus' final coming for resurrection & judgment. It is not a future "end times" prophecy.

    Daniel 9 concerns the temple built for the Messiah. The 70 weeks ended in the 30s.

    Once Jesus had come & FINISHED his saving work, an earthly temple was superfluous - we have Immanuel, God with us.
     
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  17. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    The history of that people, genealogies or not, proves they're Jews. No other distinct people has gone through what the Jews have undergone, & still survived as a people.

    It's up to GOD to include the Ashkenazi among the Jews if he so chooses. As for the jews' relations with the Palestinians, don't forget who the Pals are - the descendants of the PHILISTINES, Israel's old enemy since before the time of Saul. Look it up for yourself-"Palestinian" is Latin for "Philistine"! No marvel that the Jews don't like them! After all, Hadrian had given them the Jews' land in 135-136 AD.

    An "Orthodox Jew" is one who follows the "Judaic" religion, which lives under the Old Covenant as best it can, & does not recognize Jesus as Son of God or Messiah. 'Tis the "Messianic Jews" who believe in Jesus as Son of God, Savior, & Messiah, same as gentiles do.

    It's quite-evident that Jesus is not reigning over EARTH right now, given the prevalence of sin and false religions. And the "throne of David"(a descendant of David's ruling over Israelis) is still here on earth. Remember that, shortly before Jesus' death, some Jews wanted to make Him King but that He avoided them. When He returns, He will take over David's throne & rule the world from Jerusalem.

     
  18. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    The AOD did NOT occur in that temple. The antichrist and the false prophet will address the whole world from it, as Rev. 13 makes clear, commanding all to worship both the antichrist and his image. There's no record of any Roman officer receiving a head wound that should've killed him & then recovering, to the amazement of the whole world.

    And OF COURSE I believe the prophecy. It WILL be fulfilled. And you can check for yourself to see the Jews have all the materials ready to build another temple. They recently consecrated an altar to be placed within it, and are breeding animals to be used for temple rites. They're waiting for the time to come when they can build the temple without starting another world war.
     
  19. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    If Jews of any persuasion build a temple it will be of no prophetic significance.

    The New Covenant temple of God is his dwelling with his redeemed people.

    Zec 2:11 “Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.

    2Co 6:16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you [plural] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
    “I will dwell in them
    And walk among them.
    I will be their God,
    And they shall be My people.”

    Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
    ....
    22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

     
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  20. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    There MUST be a temple for the AOD to occur in. The AOD was first prophesied by Gabriel to Daniel, then by JESUS to His disciples. It's quite clear that event is gonna occur!

    It simply did not occur in the old temple.
     
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