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Featured Partial Preterism 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by prophecy70, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    What part of the text says that He did not tell them that all would be fulfilled within their generation? What part of the text says this would be a future generation? Futurists argue that He meant "the generation that sees these signs", where they change what Jesus meant. We agree that the generation He spoke to saw the destruction of Jerusalem, as He described earlier in the passage. Here, just a few sentences later in Matthew 24:34 Jesus declares "Truly I tell you, this (not "that") generation will certainly not pass away until all (not just some or most) these things take place." The context of the passage makes it very clear that Jesus was speaking of His contemporaries, not some future generation. Since Jesus said they were the generation that would see those signs, they obviously came to pass just as He said. For one who claims to read the Bible literally, you have a habit of changing the meanings of ordinary words to fit your view.
     
    #81 Lodic, Mar 26, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
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  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    By the fact that the AOD did NOT occur in the old one, and both daniel & revelation mention the temple in a time after the old one was destroyed.


    The new one, of course, will come after God has finished giving us Scripture, which He has already done.

    There's not one quark of such evidence, empirical or implied.
     
  3. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    The fact is that the AOD did occur in the 2nd Temple. Neither Daniel nor Revelation mention a 3rd temple. You are reading into the text.

    That is pure conjecture.

    I've provided lots of implied evidence. Then again, you claim to have provided lots of evidence to disprove the Preterist views when all you really have is opinion.
     
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  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Sir, you're STILL refusing to face that big ole bear of a problem that all preterists have - the prophesied eschatological events prets CLAIM have already happened, have simply ** NOT - YET - OCCURRED ! ! ** you simply CANNOT get past that FACT ! Nothing will substitute for those events themselves!

    Jesus' words aren't wrong - the pret interp of them is wrong.

    Now, you readily admit that the first parts of the Olivet Discourse came to pass LITERALLY, TO-THE-LETTER. So, there's simply no valid reason to not believe the rest will come to pass just-as-literally!

    And again, it's almost unbelievable that, after you were shown proof from history, compared to Scripture, that shows Nero could NOT have been the beast - proof you AGREED WITH - that you STILL insist he WAS the beast! I'm beginning to believe that you're deeply in thrall to some charlatan, & hope you ask JESUS to free you from him!
     
  5. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    MMRRPP ! WRONG !

    There's not one word in Scripture, jewish writings, or secular history saying it did! The Jews were very careful to chronicle every event that occurred in the temple til it was destroyed.

    remember, I have three encyclopediae in fronta me. Please show me some **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** that the AOD occurred in the old temple.


    Not at all. There MUST be a temple for the AOD to occur in.


    You've provided only imagination and guesswork, either made up by you or one of the quacks whose garbage you read & almost put on a par with Scripture. Who's their fact-verifier, Paul Manafort?
     
  6. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    Actually, you simply refuse to accept the fact that these events have occurred because it would upset your "futurist" apple cart.

    We agree with the first part - Jesus cannot be wrong. Since He said "all these things" would come to pass, it's obvious that it's the futurist view that is in error.

    What is really amazing is how you have never denied the first parts of the OD literally came to pass, but deny that the rest also came to pass. You are forcing a different meaning into Matt. 24:34 than what Jesus actually meant.

    To be more specific, Rome was the Beast. Nero was the "personification" of the Beast (666). Since you have trouble understanding how I can hold my Partial Preterist views, I will attempt to explain it in a different way.

    When I study Scripture, I try to see what the author's intended message was, and how the original audience would have understood it. Since the 1st Century Christians were very familiar with Jewish imagery, it stands to reason that I needed to learn to understand the messages in the same way. Back when I was a "Futurist", I only read the Bible through our modern Western "eyes".

    Now I ask myself questions. How would the original audience understand the time references (soon, near, at the door, etc.)? If I was one of the disciples listening to Jesus, what would I think He meant when He spoke of things that "you" will see? Would I think He means a future generation? Putting myself in their shoes, I cannot imagine that was how they understood these prophetic messages, and I don't believe Jesus would even accidentally make them think this referred to a future generation if that was what He meant. Hope that helps you see where I'm coming from.
     
    #86 Lodic, Mar 26, 2019
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  7. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    I doubt your encyclopedias would have this. Luke 21:20 makes it very clear that the AOD came when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. What that was exactly is not clear, but it is clear that it's come to pass.

    Why? This is only a necessity if you stick to the futurist view, which is speculation.

    I do appreciate your "Manafort" joke :). This comes back to how you believe that I don't provide anything but guesswork, and I believe your "facts" are built on a house of cards.
     
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  8. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Regarding the alleged 3rd temple, both Daniel & Revelation prophesy the destruction of city & temple -

    Daniel writes -
    9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined
    For your people and for your holy city,
    To finish
    the transgression,
    To make an end of sins,
    To make reconciliation for iniquity,
    To bring in everlasting righteousness,
    To seal up vision and prophecy,
    And to anoint the Most Holy.
    ......
    26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
    Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to come
    Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
    But in the middle of the week
    He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

    And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
    Even until the consummation, which is determined,
    Is poured out on the desolate.”​

    Messiah did indeed FINISH his saving work at Calvary in the middle of that 70th week, confirming the New Covenant by his blood with the many thousands who believed in him, during his ministry & at & after Pentecost.

    And the temple, the sanctuary, was destroyed.

    Now in Revelation 11 we read of the temple then standing -
    1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
    .....
    8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    Remember Isaiah 1? -
    10 Hear the word of the LORD,
    You rulers of Sodom;
    Give ear to the law of our God,
    You people of Gomorrah:
    11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
    Says the LORD.
    “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
    And the fat of fed cattle.
    I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
    Or of lambs or goats.
    Through John the Lord is giving a final warning to the rulers of Jerusalem before the AD 70 destruction. Scripture only prophesies the destruction & all the surrounding events; it does not record those events. When we consider the recorded major events of that final war & the destruction of the city, we need have no doubt the prophesied details, AOD, false prophets, etc, also occurred without an inspired record.

    Believe Jesus' prophecy, not your encyclopaedias.
     
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  9. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    what are all the verses that imply the 3rd temple?
     
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  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    MMRRPP ! WRONG !
    I refuse to believe they've happened for the simple fact that they HAVEN'T happened yet. I've repeatedly asked for **PROOF** these events have already happened, & have received none.


    MMRRPP ! WRONG AGAIN !
    Those things WILL cometa pass.. Obviously, they haven't yet.


    MMRRPP ! WRONG YET AGAIN !
    At the time Jesus said them, all those events were future. Some have already occurred; many haven't. That's quite obvious.


    No, Rome was only the greatest empire that had ever been up to that time. Since then, it's been surpassed many times. Examples are the Mongol empire, Ottoman empire, Soviet union, and especially the British empire. The beast's empire will at first be formed from the old Roman empires, then, will include most of the world.

    And I stand by my PROOFS that Nero could NOT have been the 'beast'.

    Where you're "coming from" is against the FACTS OF REALITY. The prophesied eschatological events have simple not yet occurred. You CANNOT show me any **PROOF** any of them HAS already occurred!

    And it's been plainly proven to you, by Scripture & history, that Nero was NOT the 'beast', and that far-worde disasters than the destruction of J & the temple have occurred. And Scripture says that when Jesus returns, HE'S HERE TO STAY, & WILL RULE THE WORLD! So, it's quite-obvious He has NOT yet returned. And it's also quite-obvious, from Jesus' own words in Matt. 24:29-30 that the great trib has NOT yet occurred.

    And we know Jesus said MILLIONS of words that He didn't preserve, and what He DID preserve applies to US, as well as to the people He was directly speaking to.

    Preterism, both full & partial, remains false. Try believing Scripture fully, and do a reality check insteada relying upon some quack booksellers!
     
  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    The instituting of the New Covenant is a separate event from Jesus' return.
    And no one doubts J & the temple were destroyed in 70 AD.
    What we DO doubt is that those events were the "great trib".
     
  12. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Daniel 11:31And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

    2 Thess. 2: 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    Most of Ezekiel 42

    Rev. 11:1=2
     
  13. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    I've repeatedly provided proof from Scripture, and you've repeatedly refused to accept it.

    That is the whole point of our disagreement in a nutshell.

    While what you say about Rome is true, that doesn't negate the fact that Rome was the Beast of Revelation. I continue to stand by my proofs that Rome was the Beast, and Nero is the man whose number was 666.

    Coming from the viewpoint of the original author's meaning and the original audience's understanding is the most logical hermeneutic to take. Futurists apply their view of what they think the original author meant instead of trying to understand what the author ACTUALLY meant. Who would understand the author better than his contemporaries?

    You have to remember that none of the Bible was written directly TO us, but all of it was written FOR us. From your logic, we could take the fulfilled prophecies of judgment on different lands, or the prophecies of the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities and assume they apply to us. These are past events, and don't affect us today, except what we learn from them.

    The method I've described above is "believing Scripture fully". I'm trusting what the writers of the Bible say instead of relying on a futuristic fantasy.

    Finally, from the exact same passage above, it's quite obvious that the tribulation Jesus spoke of came to pass in exact detail. Let's pick up on "immediately after the distress of those days". The days He had been speaking of were when the Roman armies sacked and burned Jerusalem and the Temple. "Immediately" is to be taken literally, not thousands of years in the future. The "sun, moon and stars" language was commonly used to refer to rulers. The original audience would have understood exactly what He meant. That is why Futurists need to learn how to read prophecy.
     
    #93 Lodic, Mar 27, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
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  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    With all due respect, the reason it's not clear to you is because IT DIDN'Y OCCUR THEN! Scripture makes it plain the AOD will be when the "beast" enters the temple, sets up his image & declares himself to be God.

    In Luke 21:20, Jesus was speaking of JERUSALEM. Remember, 'desolation' means 'a state of complete destruction', & that's what happened to Jerusalem, as jesus had already prophesied would occur. The AOD is another event entirely. It simply DID NOT THEN OCCUR! Since you still insist Nero was the 'beast', it woulda been hard for him to have done it then since he'd been DEAD for 2 years! You're really mixed up, thanx to your reading that garbage from those quack pret authors!


    Nothing speculative about believing Jesus' words! He said it's gonna happen, & it WILL!


    My housa cards is made of steel cards, bonded together by the rivets of Scripture & history . Yours is made of hot air supplied by a gang of quax who invent stuff as they go to keep making new boox for gullible people to buy!
     
  15. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    What IS clear is that it DID occur then. How do I know? As we both know, Jesus prophesied the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem early in the OD. He never changed the context to a different time period. He went on to say that the generation He was speaking to would see ALL the events He spoke of. Either He is a liar (not an option) or that generation did see all that He spoke of. There are no other options.

    Nero represented the Beast, but Rome actually was the Beast.

    Agreed. There is nothing speculative about believing His words - e.g., "THIS generation will not pass away until ALL these things take place". He couldn't have made it more clear. This proves that the Futurist interpretation is pure speculation. Your steel house of cards is actually made of tinfoil.
     
  16. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    No, you HAVEN'T! Not one Scripture sez those events have already happened!


    Well, they HAVEN'T! The events from Matt. 24:16 onward in that chapter are future. We have PLENTY of proof the events of the 1st 15 verses have happened, or are still happening, but not one quark of proof the rest have already happened. We expect PROOF, not imagination and/or guesswork!


    Your "proofs" about Rome are opinion & guesswork, not supported in history, while Nero was one of a great many whose name could be rendered "666". While he was a man of sin, he was NOT "THE" man of sin. Again, Paul plainly prophesied THE" man of sin would enter the temple & declare himself to be God, and Nero was never in Jerusalem in his life! So much for Nero having been the "beast'!


    Jesus knew well in advance what words of His He wanted preserved, & who'd be reading them. In His Divine wisdom, He said what He said in a way that both His immediate audience & future generations could comprehend. But only now, when the signs of the end times are occurring has the meaning of His words for us been understood better.


    Again, with Divine wisdom, Jesus had His OT penmen write of those captivities & other events in the history of Israel, then He caused that history to be known & positively verified today to prove the accuracy & veracity of Scripture.


    Sir, you've said that several times, but I'm doubting it because of your fixation on Nero, when history, compared to the Scriptural criteria for the "beast", PROVES Nero could NOT have been the beast! He was never in Jerusalem, never declared himself above every god there was, and died insteada being cast alive into the LOF, for starters. When you won't believe plain, indisputable FACTS, why should I think you believe Scripture completely??????????


    Again, you couldn't be more wrong! The whole Olivet Discourse is literal, as is proven by the exact literal fulfillment of the first parts of it. There's NO indication Jesus "shifted gears" in the middle of His address to His disciples & went from literal to symbolic without taking a breath! He was predicting a great cosmological disturbance, during which He will return! And you're still stuck in space by the fact that if the great trib occurred in 70 AD, Jesus' words are wrong! Simple TRUTH is, the trib is still future!
     
  17. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    But the rest simply HASN'T YET HAPPENED! Those events are completely absent from history! Give it up! You can't win! You simply CANNOT PROVE those events have happened!


     
  18. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    The NT was completed by the mid-60s, so the events were still future to the prophecies. However, history records their exact fulfillment in the Jewish Wars, the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem.

    Your fixation that this HAS to be a future fulfillment has blinded you. ROME was the Beast, and Nero was "666". He never had to be in Jerusalem, but Rome was there through their armies and their government.

    Jesus never shifted gears to go from His present day to a distant generation. He used the metaphorical language of His day to describe the events that generation would see. You are just stuck on the idea that this MUST refer to a future event when it happened in AD 70.
     
  19. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    Since neither of us is going to convince the other, and we are only repeating the same points over and over, why don't we just call this a "draw"?
     
  20. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    No "draw' to it. MY material is based upon Scripture & actual history. Not trying to "brag", etc. but my knowlledge of history is evidently far-greater than yours, and I apparently have more resources to refer to. OTOH, your material is derived from some goofy boox written by quacks whose only interest is selling boox for $$, the TRUTH be dipped. You've been gullible enough to believe their garbage without trying to see if it's true or not.

    My placing actual history within the absolute truth of Scripture PROVES the eschatological events are all still future, and preterism is just another false, man-made "ism" that Satan uses to pollute Christianity, if he can.
     
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