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Partial Preterism and Futurism Continued

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by prophecy70, Sep 22, 2017.

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  1. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    In response to Robycop3


    No actually they didn't know. Jesus told them prior he was to die and they questioned it,

    22 Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, 23 and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up.” And they were exceedingly sorrowful.

    He predicted it 3 times that he was to rise, and they still doubted it after! And you believe they understood he was to die comeback alive and then leave and comeback?


    The Antichrist is NOT predicted in Daniel, That is a very vague explanation of the 70 weeks, 69 weeks consecutively and then a 2400 hundred year gap and counting for the 70th week, your whole logic gets very flawed there.

    The abomination of desolation is explained in Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    Matthew was written to Jews, Luke to Gentiles, they didn't know the Jewish idioms, so Luke clarified it.

    Why would it matter if the antichrist was in the temple, that people people fled to the mountains?

    Prior to the destruction of Jerusalem the temple became a gathering place for wicked men. Jesus instructs the disciples that when they see such "abomination of desolation" they were to "flee to the mountains." This passage does not refer in any way to some future return of our Lord. When this "abomination of desolation" took place, those in "Judea" were to flee to the mountains.
    Read some history books...
    'Certainly, it had been good for me to die before I had seen the house of God full of so many abominations, or these sacred places that ought not to be trodden upon at random, filled with the feet of these bloodshedding villains'" (The Wars Of The Jews, 4:3:10).
    ...before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.Jewish historian Josephus in Jewish Wars, 6.5.3 (
    There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms, the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. Roman historian Tacitus in The History, 5.13 (

    The great tribulation?

    Jesus warned His disciples that when the Roman army arrived, those in Judea should flee to the mountains and "let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those with nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath....

    What would it matter what day of the week its on if it was the end of the world???????

    Learn some history before, saying I can't explain this, it must be in the future yet.....
     
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  2. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for restarting the thread.

    Robocop's consistent argument is that history does not record all the AOD, etc prophecies in detail.

    My counter argument concerning the fufilment during the destruction is that the believers fled the city about 3 /12 years before AD 70, thus they were not there to record the fulfilment. Their departure signifies the fulfilment of the Olivet prophecy.
     
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  3. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    what does he think wasn't fulfilled in matthew 24?
     
  4. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    The coming of the Son of man:

    27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
     
  5. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    From the other thread:

    Much of the Bible is in figurative language - the infinite God is expressing his dealings with man in language that needs interpreting. As the Ethiopean put it:
    Acts 8:30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
    31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.

    He clearly understood that what he was reading had a wonderful interpretation:
    34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.

    That must be our priority in understanding/interpreting OC prophecy. Jesus is the fulfilment of the Scriptures.
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    In Matthew 24, they asked Jesus what would be the sign of His return.


    Daniel 9:“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And thepeople of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
    And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”


    Same verse, CURRENT English:“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

    So we see the 'desolation' here is the destruction of Jerusalem itself, NOT the AOD..



    There were some 8 months between Vaspasian's attack on jerusalem & the siege by Titus which finally conquered it. Thus, there was PLENTY of time between the sieges for people to flee. Now, we know Jesus' prophecies MUST come true EXACTLY AS WRITTEN in their original language, so that was NOT the final attack when the AOD will occur.

    So, Josephus & tacitus' witnesses were playing a childrens' game of imagining the clouds to be whatever/whomever they imagined. WOW! What a joke!

    Bottom line is this: THE GREAT SUPERNATURAL ESCHATOLOGICAL EVENTS HAVE SIMPLY NOT YET HAPPENED! there are NO events you can substitute for them!

    The AOD will be when the antichrist enters the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem & proclaim himself to be God, Merely destroying the old temples was not it. The Babylonians destroyed the first temple as thoroughly as the Romans destroyed the 2nd one. But the AOD is clearly linked Scripturally to the "beast", the antichrist. he clearly has NOT YET COME.

    And when he DOES come, the great trib won't be far behind his assuming full power, and the returna Jesus will be immediately after he ends the trib.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ALL of that is in the Future!
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus answered their questions, as he told them what was soon to come, and what would be His second coming event!
     
  9. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Actually, Sir, there were some 8 months between Vespasian's attack against Jerusalem and that of Titus, which conquered it. Thus, believers, or anyone else wanting to flee J then, had MONTHS, not just HOURS, to flee. Thus, those attacks were NOT the sign that "the end" was at hand.

    What those events were , were part of the punishment which Jesus prophesied against that generation of Jews in Matt. 23. They received a much-greater punishment in 135-136 AD when Hadrian & Co. booted them outta their land entirely, giving it to the Philistianes, who'd remained loyal to Rome.
     
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    The coming of the "beast/antichrist" & his deputy the false prophet.
    The "abomination of desolation".
    The marka the beast.
    The great trib.
    The great cosmological disturbance immediately after the trib, in which Christ shall return.
     
  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    And that event simply HASN'T YET HAPPENED!

    And if the great trib has already occurred, then Jesus is 'WAY overdue!

    TRUTH is - it aint happent yet!
     
  12. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, Jesus is! And His prophecies are LITERAL!

    Betcha can't point to ONE fulfilled prophecy Jesus made, that wasn't fulfilled LITERALLY.

    He said J & the temple would be destroyed, the temple so thoroughly-destroyed that not one of its stones would be left upon another. And it cameta pass EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.( The Wailing Wall is NOT parta the temple, but of the wall that surrounded the whole complex.)

    Jesus didn't say J would be rebuilt, but He implied it would be by prophesying it'd be trod underfoot by gentiles til their fullness had come in. So, J was obviously rebuilt, and is still being trod underfoot daily by gentiles.

    Jesus said there'd be war & rumor of war, which there's been from shortly after that time thru now.

    Jesus said there'd be persecutions of Christians with decapitations, and those have sharply increased under ISIS.

    So, there's simply NO valid reason to deny the resta Jesus' prophecies will be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN in the original Koine Greek.
     
  13. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    They are parallel chapters, they both say the same thing! Jesus didn't have TWO discourses. The Abomination of Desolation is NOTHING other than armies surrounding Jerusalem. To say its anything else, is saying Jesus either spoke twice or one of the writers was wrong.

    This makes me laugh, how in the world do you get a future temple, and Antichrist and a false prophet from that....

    26 Is talking about the Messiah being cut off, Jesus died, and the outcome of that is the destruction of Jerusalem.
    27... then HE who is this whole chapter referring to? THE ANOINTED ONE. THE MESSIAH, not some future antichrist. Thats as silly as saying it refers to moby dick or peter pan. Jesus made a covenant until he died and ended the sacrificial way of life.

    The prophecy is for 490 years, its blasphemy to say God was wrong, and it was 2000 years and counting because its not fulfilled yet. Your taking daniel 9 out of context, there is no place there that refers to some future antichrist sitting on a temple. its funny actually, let me try that. I believe it refers actually to babe ruth and his covenant with the redsox, until the yankees got him and made the redsox desolate.... sounds silly right?





    The prophecy In the discourse was for the generation that killed Jesus. So that statement is irrelevant.

    do you read the OT? The bible is full of wonderful prophetic language, how many times has the bible said god came to defeat nations? let me ask you this,

    I will show wonders in heaven above
    And signs in the earth beneath:
    Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
    The sun shall be turned into darkness,
    And the moon into blood,
    Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
    And it shall come to pass
    That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
    Shall be saved.’

    Thats about pentecost, do you take that literal as well?


    That right there just shows ignorance..
     
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  14. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    They did not know he was coming back. They were still confused about him dying...they were waiting for a earthly kingdom. Think like they did, not with the knowledge you have now. He told them earlier, there would be those standing here who would not taste death until the saw him come into his kingdom. they were waiting for him to be KING, not to leave and come back 2000 years later. Jesus did answer the question though without correcting them, Right when it says No one knows the Day or hour, life will be normal when it happens like in the days of noah.... They didn't know until it happened. Everyone would know, if some supernatural being was sitting in the newly formed temple, after the dome of the rock came down, that something was going on.
     
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    HOW SILLY!

    Jesus plainly talked about the AOD SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL. And I posted the verses from Daniel 9 showing that. Daniel said "The people of the prince who shall come shall destroy Jerusalem". Plainly, that was the Romans. And jesus was NOT a Roman. So, we must look for another prince of Roman descent. that covers a lotta ground, as there are descendants of Romans all over the world.



    By the fact the new temple hasn't yet been built, not has the beast & his deputy the false prophet come yet.

    I just reminded ya of what Daniel wrote. He said the PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE WHO IS TO COME shall destroy J.

    And you know full well the Orthodox Jews of today don't believe Jesus is Messiah any more than the old Pharisees did.

    You got a problem. YOU CANNOT PROVE THOSE EVENTS HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED! That's the bottom line!







    OK, then, tell us the names of the beast & false prophet.

    describe the marka the beast.

    Awww, why go on? ya can't do it, & that's THAT! All you've provided is enough hot air to keep a fleet of balloons airborne.



    do you read the OT? The bible is full of wonderful prophetic language, how many times has the bible said god came to defeat nations? let me ask you this,

    MMRRPP ! WRONG !

    it's about the day of Jesus' return.




    No, the ignorance is imagining the clouds are anything but tiny water droplets.

    You forget that Jesus' prophecies MUST be fulfilled EXACTLY, TO THE LETTER of their original writing in Koine Greek. Nothing else is their fulfillment.

    The eschatological prophecies are NOT yet fulfilled, & you CANNOT prove otherwise. You CANNOT tell us the names of the beast & FP, tell us when all life in the seas died, when all green grass was burned up, etc. etc.during the great trib.
     
  16. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But THIS is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

    17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
    That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
    Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    Your young men shall see visions,
    Your old men shall dream dreams.
    18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
    I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
    And they shall prophesy.
    19 I will show wonders in heaven above
    And signs in the earth beneath:
    Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
    And the moon into blood,
    Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
    21 And it shall come to pass
    That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
    Shall be saved.’


    No that is about pentecost. Sorry.


    Jesus prophecies have to be fulfilled to the letter? That is the best joke I've heard all day. Reread your bible please and show me all the prophetic language that is filled right to the letter.

    If thats the case stop adding a 2000 year gap in a 490 year prophecy about jesus and making him into an antichrist in the future.

    The beast and the mark of the beast? You watch to many left behind movies.
    If you are a baptist, your own people thought the beast was the pope. its why the reformation happened. And the catholics refuted it, with some future satan man, and now you believe this made up story.

    I have history on my side (find one futurist view before 1800) , you have fairy tales made up in the 1800s. You can't prove noah's flood happened either, so how do you know it did?


    Why the 2000 year gap in this then? If its filled to the letter? 490 years. Where are you pulling out the gap?

    So luke was a different discourse?

    15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains

    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains

    Its the same verse. it explains it self.
     
    #16 prophecy70, Sep 23, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
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  17. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Anyone else care to voice their opinion?
     
  18. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    No, it's not. First, those weren't the last days, as is quite obvious, made so by the FACT that WE are here!

    And JESUS HIMSELF described the same thing in Matt. 24 that'll happen just before His return:

    Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Maybe YOUR Jesus wasn't a 100% accurate prophet, but MY SAVIOR, JESUS OF NAZARETH, is!

    Again, PLEASE POST ONE PROPHECY Jesus made that, if it's already fulfilled, wasn't fulfilled EXACTLY, AS WRITTEN!

    here are some that are fulfilled:

    The destruction of J & the temple, so that not one stone of the temple was left upon another.
    war & rumor of war
    Jerusalem being trod underfoot by gentiles
    Persecution of Christians with decapitations
    Peter's denying Him three times
    The preparation of the "Last Supper" and the availability of the donkey's colt for Him to ride
    His own manner of death and His resurrection

    Now, please tell other Baptists that Jesus wasn't a 100% accurate prophet! Your above statement would be considered blasphemous in many circles!

    The antichrist's coming is prophesied by Daniel, Paul, and the angel who gave some of the Revelation to John. So, you say they were all wrong?

    I have counted FIFTY Bible verses that mention the "beast/man of sin/antichrist" either directly or indirectly, & it's likely I missed a few. So, they were all wrong?

    That's what SCRIPTURE sez, not robycop. To prove ME wrong, you hafta prove SCRIPTURE wrong!


    they useta think the earth was flat, & "cured" migraines by trepanning, that is, cutting a hole in the skull to allow the "bad humours" to escape. But early church fathers were also looking for the antichrist and Jesus' return.

    If history is on your side, then please tell us who the "beast" & his false prophet were, when all life in the seas died, what the marka the beast looked like, etc.




    You should know full well that Messiah was "cut off" in the middle of the last 7 years, and events put on "hold" til the time of His return.

    Different words. He likely heard it secondhand from another disciple.

    The desolation of J was NOT the "abomination of desolation", which will be when the antichrist enters the temple which the Jews will build in Jerusalem, sets up his statue in it, & proclaims himself to be God, demanding to be worshipped. This is prophesied in both 2 Thess. 2 & Rev. 13.

    I thought at first you had simply been deceived by some book or false preqacher you heard, but now I see you're completely sold-out to the words of man over the words of GOD. I shall keep praying that the HOLY SPIRIT will set your mind straight lest you lead someone else into your apostasy.

    The likes of Gentry, Preston, Sproul, the jeezit Alcazar, etc. are purveyors of bunk.

    Bottom line is, you can't prove a thing you say in favor of preterism.
     
  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Almost everyone else here believes preterism is phony as a Ford Corvette & won't do what they consider a waste of time fooling with it. however, as a dedicated fighter of false doctrines, I consider it my Christian D-U-T-Y to refute it.
     
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You honestly don't expect Robocop to actually compare scripture with scripture and allow it to interpret itself, do you? Ain't gonna happen. He prefers fables over truth.

    Zactly.

    When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....
     
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