I'm putting this in this forum since it is a matter of ecclesiology.
On the NA28 thread in the Bible Versions forum the subject of Eph. 4:11 came up when I opined that John MacArthur was mistaken in his interpretation of it. MacArthur teaches that in that verse, the terms "pastors" and "teachers" are talking about the same individuals, based on the Granville Sharp rule of koine Greek grammar. So instead of both pastors and teachers in the church, we have pastor/teachers, one office.
I object to this interpretation on several grounds.
(1) MacArthur is misusing the Granville Sharp rule, which states that when there is the formation in the Greek, definite article + noun + kai (kai, "and") + noun, the two nouns are referring to the same person. But old Granville (the grammarian's name) only applied the rule to singular nouns, not plural, as MacArthur would have it. There are scholars who disagree with me, including a Greek scholar friend, but no less than Daniel Wallace did his dissertation on this, coming out on Granville's side. See a condensation of it at: http://bible.org/article/sharp-redivivus-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule. See a simpler explanation at: http://www.biblicalevangelist.org/index.php?id=1039&issue=Volume+41% 2C+Number+4.
(2) I see nowhere else in the NT where we might interpret that pastor and teacher are one and the same.
(3) It seems very plain from other passages that there are teachers who are not pastors: Acts 13:1, 1 Cor. 12:28, Heb. 5:12.
Personally, I highly value many of my teachers (who were not pastors) in Bible college and seminary over the years, not to mention the many wonderful SS teachers I've had or known. I think it is "dissing" them to not include them as important to Christ's church.
Caveat: I think one person can be a pastor, a teacher, or both. But they are not the same office.
Pastor and Teacher, or Pastor/Teacher?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John of Japan, Aug 9, 2012.
?
What do you think about the pastor and teacher?
Poll closed Aug 14, 2012.
-
They are two separate offices in the church.
31.6% -
They both indicate the same office, the pastor/teacher.
68.4% -
I don't know.
0 vote(s)0.0% -
Other
0 vote(s)0.0%
Page 1 of 3
-
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
I'm no Greek scholar, but I can appreciate the distinction between the two views.
FWIW, I've always thought that Jesus and Paul were both 'pastor-teachers' and I have tried to emulate their ministry. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Jesus and Paul were both pastors and teachers, of course. Jesus was also called apostle and prophet in the NT, but no one wants to call Him a shepherd/apostle or a prophet/teacher. So I distinguish between Him being both a pastor and teacher, and the pastor/teacher paradigm, in which I see no room for a Bible teacher who is not a pastor, like for example many of our teachers at Temple: Fred Afman, Wymal Porter, etc.
Also, think of the pastors who are great leaders and motivators, but lousy preachers and teachers. The pastor/teacher paradigm would leave them out as un-Biblical. -
When I was at TTU in Chattanooga, TN (Freshman - 93) I first heard it from the Pastor at Highland Park in his message which contained that verse, and then again when going through NT Survey. At SouthEastern Theological Seminary it was viewed in the same light. In my understanding of the Greek I don't find the Granville Rule misused though it is uniquely used there.
I find it interesting that teacher is never portrayed as a office as the other 4 are through the NT. One thing about the offices that stand out is not everyone is called to be an Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor... however all believers are called to teach and should be doing so on whatever level is comfortable to them (one on one, small groups, larger groups, ect..). Not just specific passages (which there are) but also the very term - Disciple - not only implies but in fact determines this.
However it is this instance alone where the 'word' pastor is used to identify the office of Bishop but since I believe each of these offices given in the passage portray not just the name of the office, it portrays the function thereof and thus 'pastor' (since it is only used here to identify the office Bishop) is elaborated upon with the extension - teacher to qualify the function.
Again, I AGREE the Gran. Rule is at least, unique here but I 'think' there is enough evidence in scripture to validate the usage here, and thus the distinction to the rule, as illustrated here.
Just my nickel in the bucket. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Would your NT Survey teacher have been a pastor/teacher or just a teacher? :smilewinkgrin: I remember a number of our great teachers there who did not pastor: Fred Afman, Wymal Porter, Dennis Wisdom. My Uncle Roger Martin pastored for years, but then for many years was "just" a teacher.
Daniel Wallace points out that the Greek commentators who argue for pastor/teacher in Eph. 4:11 don't give linguistic proof. However, there are usages outside the NT where a case for the plural might be made. My Greek prof friend says he'd love to mentor a PhD student who wants to do a dissertation updating the GS.
-
Since teaching is a requirement for being an elder (pastor) I would say all pastors are teachers...but not all teachers are pastors. Pastor / teacher would be similar to Pastor / husband of one wife / self controlled / not a drunk / good family leader / etc.
-
If Dan B. Wallace is a Greek authority, then we're talking about two separate but overlapping groups here.
-
From The Sword and the Trowel:
http://books.google.com/books?id=a7gVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA211
-
I believe that they are two distinct offices. A teacher is a guide and a giver, whereas, I view a pastor more as a leader and a challenger. They both can definitely be found in one individual, and I would find it especially important that a pastor be able to teach his flock. I don't see how a teacher would be synonymous with a pastor though, as it would not be necessary for his calling.
-
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
I've always thought all pastor are teachers, but most teachers aren't pastors.
I haven't ever heard the concept that all teachers are pastors or that they're interchangeable.
Do you have a link to MacArthur saying this or can you tell me the name of the book you read it in? -
-
While not all teachers are pastors, all pastors are to be teachers.
-
Note that Paul did not say to some, pastors, and to some, teachers. He described some as being both pastors and teachers.
I take this to mean to those who are called to be pastors will also have a teaching gift.
And I agree that some who are given the teaching gift are not necessarily called to be pastors. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Edited in: Okay, some surfing! Note that on John's church's website it refers to him as "Pastor-teacher" (www.gty.org). So he feels strongly about it. And here's a sermon where he talks about that: http://www.gty.org/resources/Sermons/1926.
To show you that his exegesis is shallow in this sermon, he said, "I might add this, the word pastor only appears once in the whole Bible, and it's here." That's a mistake. The word "pastor" or "pastors" occurs 8 times in Jeremiah in addition to Eph. 4:11. Furthermore, the Greek word translated "pastors" there is poimen, usually translated "shepherd" and occuring 17 times in the NT. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Page 1 of 3