Pastor wears Hawaiian Shirt in pulpit

[Karen]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
I have preached in a swim suit on the beach.

I have preached in levis and torn t-shirt at camp.............Why would someone condemn dockers and then just wear a suit/tie?.......
(Okay, removing tongue from cheek. But have a great selection of bow ties I'll loan you when you take man-made legalistic standards of dress to the fullest extent . . )

Dear Dr. Bob,
You make lots of good points. And I am NOT a poster child for dressing up. If I recall correctly, my youngest last Sunday wore t-shirt, jeans, and tennis shoes. I wore pants with an oversized tunic top. My whole outfit, was bought, I think, for about $5 5 years ago.
Lots of people in my church wear jeans and sometimes shorts in summer.

Saying that, though, can't we go TOO far in any sense with dressing down? I note that you did not preach in the swimsuit or the torn t-shirt in church.
I am not making this up: a church in my town (not Baptist) has sometimes had pajama worship services on holiday Sunday mornings. I am sure they were modest pajamas!

Karen

 

[Pastor Larry]

The Pharisees were extremely serious with their wide phylacteries and extra long tassels.

With all due respect, that is missing the point. They dressed for the wrong reasons. I am not suggesting that in the least. I do agree that, to a large degree, dress is cultural. My point is that in our American culture, there is a widely accepted attire that denotes a seriousness or a soberness about the task at hand. We recognize it in courtrooms and government. Most teachers recognize that in their classrooms dress affects behavior. I am honestly not sure why something that is this basic is even questioned. I have been in courtrooms where people were not allowed to enter because they were wearing shorts, or had their shirts untucked, or hats on. Why? Because there was a recognition of authority and the seriouness of the occasion. The worship service is not a circus or a picnic.

I have no problems if someone wears a Hawaiian shirt (apart from the fashion faux pas). I don't ever wear a coat and tie to the office and I never wear one to week night activities. I recognize that other cultures have different meanings attached to their dress. I think we need to take this issue a little more seriously than many are.

Now as for Bob preaching in a swim suit, that either took a lot of self-confidence or a lot of apathy ... ... Did you think they were laughing at your jokes???

 

[2Timothy4:1-5]

Get that man a tuxedo. After all, he is a "mouthpiece" of the King of Kings, and anything less than a tuxedo isn't showing proper reverence.

Kenneth

 

[Pastor Larry]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Kenneth. Why is it that the all too typical response to something is to blow it way out of proportion? Why not take the arguments at face value, try to understand them, and reply to them rather than blowing it up into a straw man that no one is arguing for?

 

[Greg Linscott]

Dr. Bob-

Were you in Youth Ministry?

Pastor Larry, I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Is there a BIBLICAL level of propriety and form of dress whil preaching?

Or is it 100% subjective and cultural?

Swim suit v tuxedo? Long tie or bow tie or no tie?

 

[Greg Linscott]

When the clothes serve to bring attention to the preacher or distract from the truth being preached, then we have a problem.

That being said, you could actually overdress in the pulpit. It might actually be a bad idea, for example, to preach in a suit and tie at camp, for example.

I spoke with a missionary who serves in South America on this issue once. The standard they encouraged to the men they trained there was whatever the accepted dress was for business. If the men weren't wearing ties, say, in the banking business, why wear them in the pulpit? To put it in our context, though- what kind of impression would you have of a loan officer or bank president wearing a Hawaiian shirt (when no one else in the office was)?

Interesting Fact: I have been told that Dr. David Otis Fuller often preached at the old Wealthy Street Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan wearing a tuxedo.

 

[Karen]

Lots of people in my church wear jeans and sometimes shorts in summer.

Saying that, though, can't we go TOO far in any sense with dressing down? I note that you did not preach in the swimsuit or the torn t-shirt in church.
*********I am not making this up: a church in my town (not Baptist) has sometimes had pajama worship services on holiday Sunday mornings. I am sure they were modest pajamas! *********

Karen [/QB][/QUOTE]

Reposting this because it either got buried or people are too stunned to reply!

Karen

 

[Elijah]

HMM, did John the Baptist dress up to preach? I'm not against wearing our best to present God's Word in, I certainly wear the best I have to church, out of "personal" conviction. However, it is so easy for people to get so hung up on appearance that they totally miss the real point: does he preach or teach the truth? The Bible says "by their fruits we will know them". One of the best preachers I have heard, preached to us wearing a nice pull over shirt, and he was and is ,on fire for God, and preaches the gospel of Jesus powerfully and relentlessly. Manner of dress (as long as it is modest ) is a personall thing. If you feel you should wear a suit and tie to preach in, then by all means do so. If not, follow your heart. The Bible is silent concerning dress other than it is to be modest, so I would be carefull about adopting a personall opinion and assuming it must be God's also.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Is there a BIBLICAL level of propriety and form of dress whil preaching?

Or is it 100% subjective and cultural?

How's Yes and yes??

As to the first, the Bible does not prescribe a particular style of dress, for obvious reasons. Styles change every few years, much less every few thousand. However, Scripture does give some clue as to the character of the pastor and his image. He is to be one who is taken seriously, who is sober about his work as a pastor/teacher of the word. He is to be one who is not looked down on for his youth (I know you don't have that problem, Bob ). I think dress plays a big part in that. I know for a fact when I go in a place of business, the way a salesperson is dressed tells me a lot about what kind of employee they are. If they take pride in their appearance and presentation, then they probably take pride in their knowledge of a subject. Think about how many fortune 500 CEOs look like street bums??? Not many ... Why?

Dress is not something we should take pride in, but we should dress for the occasion. I wear something different on Sun PM than I do on Sun AM because it is a different occasion. A young person in the ministry can bring great skepticism and doubt about his maturity simply by how he dresses. I am of the opinion that a pastor should be stylish, but not faddish. He should be classic in his dress and appearance. To me, in our culture I think dressing down sends a message I don't want to send.

As to the second question it is subjective and cultural to a degree. We would be foolish to deny that. But within a culture, different types of cultural dress send different messages. What is the message I want to send about myself on Sunday AM when I am behind the pulpit? I want people to know I am serious, I am mature, and I take my position responsibly. I don't want to send the message that I am on vacation, or can't wait for the service to be over to head to the beach.

I think distraction is a key issue. I can distract both by being underdressed as well as by being overdressed.

We need to be careful of the message we send ...

 

[Circuitrider]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Pharisees were extremely serious with their wide phylacteries and extra long tassels.

Now as for Bob preaching in a swim suit, that either took a lot of self-confidence or a lot of apathy ... ... Did you think they were laughing at your jokes??? </font>[/QUOTE]I would have to say that I have seen Dr. Bob in a swim suit, and it ain't pretty....

 

[blackbird]

Yes, Circuit Rider---Blackbird has seen a picture of the famed Doctor---he was wading in the "Kiddie Pool" on board some cruise ship---topless!!! Blackbird could tell there wasn't much preachin' going on and if there was any---it would be Mrs. Griffin preachin' to her audience of one, the Doc!!

Well, at least he wasn't pictured in the ship's casino!!!!

Blackbird

 

[Circuitrider]

As to this general discussion, I am with Pastor Larry. I don't think we should make a doctrine out of dress, but there is certainly an appropriateness that governs what we wear and when.

One thing about dressing up for church is that you can always dress down after you get there. Take off the coat, loosen the tie...that is about as casual as I can get in the pulpit.

Now speaking in the mountains on a camping trip is another matter and the hawaiian shirt might pass there...

It reminds me of a church I took almost 20 years ago. One of the church deacons came forward in the Sunday evening service as an usher to take the offering in a hawaiian shirt, and Dr. Scholz's sandals while all the men of the church were dressed in collared shirts and ties and most had on sport coats.

In Brazil last summer everyone (just about) wore flip-flops and casual dress to church. What is the world coming to....

 

[Circuitrider]

But Blackbird, I have seen his picture down at the post office recently

 

[amen_corner]

Believe it or not, I had a funny conversation with a guy who actually questioned the salvation of any preacher that didn't preach in a suit. His rationale? We should always bring our best to worship, and what preacher doesn't own a suit?

I try to dress just one notch above the average person in the audience. A pastor once told me that it was probably a good idea to dress on the same level as other professionals in your town. Like it or not, image matters...and for me, I don't particularly like that!

 

[AF Guy N Paradise]

I ride the fence on this issue as well. Here in Hawaii, most of the churches are very casual in dress and many will have the pastor wearing an Hawaiian shirt.

I am a member of a conservative IFB and our Pastor says dress is important, but he would rarely rebuke someone unless they were real bad. He is just glad to have them there. I have known and heard of churches that literally turn their nose at anyone not dressed in suit and tie, etc.

Here is a story I received that addresses this issue. I hope this is new to many of you:

One Sunday morning an old cowboy entered a church just before services were to begin. Although the old man and his clothes were spotlessly clean, he wore jeans, a denim shirt and boots that were very worn and ragged. In his hand he carried a worn out old hat and an equally worn out old bible.

The church he entered was in a very upscale and exclusive part of the city. It was the largest and most beautiful church the old cowboy had ever seen. It had high cathedral ceilings, ornate statues, beautiful murals and stained glass windows, plush
carpet, and velvet like cushioned pews. The building must have cost many millions of dollars to build and maintain. The men, women and children of the congregation were all dressed in the finest and most expensive suits, dresses, shoes, and
jewelry the old cowboy had ever witnessed.

As the poorly dressed cowboy took a seat the others moved away from him. No one greeted him. No one welcomed him. No one offered a handshake. No one spoke to him. They were all appalled at his appearance and did not attempt to hide the fact. There were many glances in his direction as the others frowned and commented among themselves about his shabby attire. A few chuckles and giggles came from some of the younger members.

The preacher gave a long sermon about Hellfire and brimstone and a stern lecture on how much money the church needed to do God's work. When the offering plate was passed thousands of dollars came pouring forth. As soon as the service was over the congregation hurried out. Once again no one spoke or even nodded to the stranger in the ragged clothes and boots. As the old cowboy was leaving the church the preacher approached him. Instead of welcoming him, the preacher asked the cowboy to do him a favor. "Before you come back in here again, have a talk with God and ask him what He thinks would be appropriate attire for worshiping in this church " the preacher said. The old cowboy assured the preacher he would do that and left.

The very next Sunday morning the old cowboy showed back up for the services wearing the same ragged jeans, shirt, boots, and hat. Once again the congregation was appalled at his appearance. He was completely shunned and ignored again. The preacher noticed the man still wearing his ragged clothes and boots, and instead of beginning his sermon, stepped down from the pulpit and walked over to where the man sat alone. "I thought I asked you to speak to God before you came back to our church," the preacher said. "I did," replied the old cowboy. "If you spoke to God, what did he tell you the proper attire should be for worshiping in here?" asked the preacher.

"Well sir", said the old cowboy, "God told me that He wouldn't have the slightest idea what was appropriate attire for worshiping in your church. He says He's never even been in here."

 

[onestand]

Respect is in the heart, not in appearance. When a church is far more concerned about what color or style shirt is worn behind a pulpit rather than the message, it's time to move away from the church, they need to refocus on what's really important...clothing isn't.

 

[Gib]

Book em Dano!

 

[blackbird]

I heard the story once---Admiral Halsey, of WW2 Navel fame---Commanding Admiral of the US Navy's Seventh Fleet

Some of the ships in the fleet had "Ice Cream machines"---those that did set a parogitive---no cuttin' in line.

Well, story goes---Halsey was in line waiting on his turn at the ice cream machine---he was "dressed down" with utilities and no insignia---and just then--two Midshipmen walked up and "cut" in line waaaaaaaay ahead of Halsey---Hasley saw them cut and blurted out---"Hey, You two duffs---no cuttin' in line you hear?"

The two Midshipmen started dressing Halsey down----and then after a good tongue lashin'---they then asked him---"What's your name and your rank, Sailor??" To which Halsey replies:

"Halsey! Admiral! Seventh Fleet! Now, to the back of the line with you two!"

I can dress up---in order to navigate my ship from the bridge(preach on Sunday's)---but I can also dress down if I want to stand in a line in the hot South Pacific and wait on ice cream---(sweeping the church kitchen and emptying the trash that the teenagers left out!!)

Blackbird

 

[Bro. James Reed]

If clothing isn't important, why wear any at all?

I'll agree with the bunch that the place reflects the type of clothing worn. I have gone to a singing school every year since I was born. We have morning devotionals and evening devotionals where the speaker (usually an elder) wears slacks and a button-up shirt, usually short-sleeved, no tie, sometimes tennis shoes and sometimes dress shoes. It takes place outside in the middle of June. HOT!!!

But, when we go to church in an actual church, it is suit and tie for about 99% of the preachers with the others wearing nice polo style shirts.

It may be wrong, but it would be hard for me to listen attentively to a man preaching from the pulpit wearing a Hawaiian shirt. Doesn't he know that it is so off-the-wall that it will distract from the message?

If we're just using the term "modest" to describe our dress for church, well we need to determine what it means. From the posts I'm reading here, it appears that modest means anything that covers the body. Well, how about a speedo. What if the pastor wore make-up into the pulpit? What if he didn't shave for a month, didn't bathe for a while, and didn't comb his hair or even wash his clothes. Would that be alright?

I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying the whole "as long as he's comfortable" thing. I just can't imagine that a pastor would place his determination to wear non-dress clothing over the comfort of his congregation. If the man owns a suit, and he intentionally wears something considered inappropriate in most churches, then it seems that he is just trying to stir trouble. That is wrong.

And, like it or not, we as human beings judge others based on their outward appearance, whether you want to admit it or not. It's hard to respect someone when they don't show the same respect back, even if it is just in the way they dress. Imagine wearing a Hawaiian shirt to a job interview...anywhere but Hawaii.

What if the pastor came dressed as a punk rocker. As long as he's fully clothed, I guess it wouldn't matter what he wore or how he looked, right? What if he dyed his hair pink, and purple, and green. Shaved it into a mohawk. Rode a motorcycle in the church to the pulpit. As long as he's modest. After all, the bible doesn't say you can't ride a motorcyce in the church.

Bottom line, if it's going to distract the congregation from the message, it shouldn't be worn or done, whether it be wearing a Hawaiian shirt or an orange tuxedo or whatever else.

We have enough respect for the dead to wear a suit to a funeral, but all of a sudden we don't have respect enough for God, His church, and His followers to wear the same to church?

I still ask, did any of our church fathers advocate dressing down for church? Did ministers 50 or 100 yrs. ago wear Hawaiian shirts to church?

Scripture doesn't forbid dressing down, but what does tradition tell us? I reiterate that tradition is important. Throughout the history of the church things have been allowed which were not in and of themselves against scripture, but just look at all of the unscriptural things that have crept in just by allowing little things in the church. If we don't allow the little things, we won't have to worry about the big things.