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You don't

And here you have just made my point.

 

Yet you frequently post things about the president. Are you saying we should ignore everything you post because you don't know what you are taking about?

Didn't know there was one. I know for a fact our pastor uses one day, he has said so. Anyone taking 3 - 4 full days preparing a 20 - 30 minute exposition of Scripture is either in need of a time management course or should question their purpose and calling as a pastor.

 

You use of this comparison if flawed. I have never criticized the demands of the job. my criticism is restricted to policy.

I do not know of anyone who has claimed this.

 

As is mine.

"Putting 15-20 hours into a sermon is quite common and needful. I have had tomes where I have had to spend less time but those are rare."

Given that it was said on the last page it is taught at universities that for each hour of speaking it takes 3 hours of prep, that means one should be preaching 5 - 6 hours each week given that kind of preparation.

 

webdog

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Paul says a pastor labours in the word and doctrine...this indicates working full time at it....so much so that deacons were appointed to free the elders for this duty...

If the "pastor" is only whipping up a little sermonette, or Joel Osteen pep talk...then he is not serious about the word of God at all, he might not need more than a few minutes and a few jokes to pass the time that should be for biblical exposition.

 

Only if the one tallying the surveys cannot do arithmetic. If one person puts 8 hr each for 5 categories and the next puts 8 hr each for 5 different categories, the total would still come to 40 hr, 4 hr in each of 10 categories.

 

Facts are most people in the pews have no idea of what the job of the pastor entails, and could care less WHAT he does as long as he is there at their beck and call. But woe to the pastor who fails to cater to their tiniest need.

 

No, you would have the 8 hours average for each category if the same categories were not shared. Could be a number of ways to arrive at that.

 

That's sad both from the pastors and congregations vantage point.

 

Agreed. :thumbsup:

 

You don't even know what you are criticizing.

That is not 3-4 days.

Having attended two different Universities I can tell you that is not what is taught. Having been mentored by my pastor it was not taught by him either. You are arguing way beyond your own experience.

 

Where is sermon preparation outlined in 1 Timothy 3? The Sermon prep should be the easy part if one is laboring in the word and knows the Bible. Nothing from that text is speaking of 'appeasing the shareholders', what many sermons are now in the corporate mindset church. Has nothing to do with sermonettes or grandiose speeches, BTW.

 

When you have had to prepare and deliver sermons week in and week out for a few years then com back and tell all of us pastors how to do it. I am not trying to be rude but just factual, statements like that make you look foolish. It seems now you are just arguing for argument sake.

 

You are merely splitting hairs and being obtuse. 15 - 20 hours is 3 - 4 full 8 hour days on average.

I was merely using the time example given on the last page nobody seemed to refute.

 

I'm not. The sermon is the focal point of the pastors job, and I don't see that anywhere in scripture where it is or should be. We've reduced the church to singing a handful of songs to worship, sipping grape juice and nibbling on tiny crackers as the Lords Supper, take mission trips to vacation resort type places, and expect full discipleship in a 30 minute speech. I'm not faulting any one side, everyone is at fault for what the church has become. I see my brothers and sisters who are the body and pastors 'do church' in other places in the world, and what the west has reduced it to has become pathetic, stroking egos of both the body and the pastor, and putting the dollar first and foremost. The fact on one of the other threads it was applauded that missions were cut from a budget over salaries while people are perishing everywhere is disgusting.

I've become hardened to what the church now is. The foolishness is thinking everything is as it should be.

 

Thank You Thank you Thank You:thumbs:

 

Web, please do a couple of things for me. Flesh out this post. It's obvious what bothers you. If churches are off-track, what do you think they ought to be doing, and what should be pastoral priorities?

Go back to my post #6 and take the survey, which I agree is unscientific, but an honest effort by my pastor to understand his congregation. What are the most important things on that list. What, if anything should not even be on the list? What would you add? Give me your view of what a congregation should expect of its pastor.

I'm interested in your opinion because our church is currently pastor-less, and the search committee (of which I am a member) is in the early stages of its work. One of the things we are doing is preparing a job description. In other words, what we expect our pastor to do and be.

I look forward to getting your opinions on this.

 

Everything needs to be done through the veil of two things, the great commission and discipleship (which leads to the first). This is the priority and reason the church even exists.

The list was pretty good except for the two things I mentioned prior. I don't think there can be a most important thing as everyone is different and churches are made up of individuals. There needs to be flexibility on any given day / week. Prayer needs to be the catalyst for the order of importance. The Bible grants flexibility outside of the requirements given, which some use as mere suggestions. We don't even need the traditional sermons each and every week. How refreshing to only sing songs of adoration for an entire service. To share what God has been doing in the lives of others through testimonies at another. To break up into groups of 8 to sincerely pray for one another at another. To go as a church to an area in need and feed the hungry at another. To have a real Lords Supper...a meal together worshipping! To have a pastor pour out his heart to the congregation at another. To take up a collection of offerings to present to a family who lost a job, is sick, or losing their home...and not worry about the 'budget' of material things, salaries, etc...to meet the needs of one another! How refreshing! You get the idea, we have commercialized and marketed 'church' a specific way

Having been on a search committee, I understand what you are going through. If I can find my pages of notes from a few years back, I'll forward them on to you. Its a daunting task. Even in that you have to agree with the rest of those on the committee, and that can be futile and frustrating as they want to do church the way its always been done, are not open to change, hold the corporate mentality, and can turn things into a popularity contest. Preparing a description in itself is tough with such personalities.

Now, since we disagree on the governance model outlined in Scripture, I'm not sure my input would be that helpful. Praying that God does grant you and your team wisdom, though!

 

How Many Hours Must a Pastor Work to Satisfy the Congregation?

When I was a pastor in St. Petersburg, Florida, I gave a survey to the twelve deacons in the church (I jokingly said we had eleven good deacons and one Judas!). I listed several congregational responsibilities and asked them to share the minimum amount of time I should average in each area each week. I listed about twenty areas; but they were free to add other responsibilities to the blank lines.

I’m not sure exactly what I was anticipating. I just know that I was shocked when I tallied the results. In order to meet those twelve deacons minimum expectations I had to fulfill the following responsibilities each week:

Prayer at the church: 14 hours
Sermon preparation: 18 hours
Outreach and evangelism: 10 hours
Counseling: 10 hours
Hospital and home visits: 15 hours
Administrative functions: 18 hours
Community involvement: 5 hours
Denominational involvement: 5 hours
Church meetings: 5 hours
Worship services/preaching: 4 hours
Other: 10 hours

Total: 114 hours/week

If I met just the minimum expectations of twelve deacons, I would have to work more than 16 hours a day for seven days a week. Or I could take one day off of work each week, and work 19 hours a day for six days a week. And remember, I still would only meet the minimum expectations of twelve people in the church, not the entire membership.

Clearly a pastor will sense the tension of so many factors competing for the limited hours in a week. And clearly no one can ever humanly meet all those expectations.

http://thomrainer.com/2013/07/24/how-many-hours-must-a-pastor-work-to-satisfy-the-congregation/