I notice that you have delivered this spiel with any regard whatsoever to Scripture.
Let me quote. Proverbs 17:15 to you again. 'He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the just are both of them alike an abomination to the LORD.' So God is bound to punish sin. That is why the Lord Jesus had willingly to be 'made sin,' for otherwise God could not punish Him.God is bound to do both those things.
As you have written it here, this is pure Romanism. One undergoes the sacrament of confession, possibly is given a penance to do, and Hey Presto! One is forgiven; Christ does not come into it. But in fact it is only by the suffering and the shed blood of Christ that we can be forgiven at all.Didn't I see that in the Bible somewhere? No, I can't have done; you say there is no retributive justice in the Bible. yet here it is-- Exodus 21:24 etc. :Whistling
But, you say, what about Matthew 5:38? This is the law for Christians: we who have been forgiven so much through the penal substitution of Christ for our sins, and who are born again of the Spirit of God, leave judgement to Him. 'For it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says the Lord (Romans 12:19). Retributive justice is God's prerogative.
This is a very serious libel upon the Lord and, again, you may wish to reconsider it. '....That repentance and remission of sins should be preached in [Christ's] name to all nations....' (Luke 24:47). True [godly-- 2 Corinthians 7:10) repentance is a turning away from sin and towards Christ and is actually a gift of God (Acts 11:18). To say that God may not forgive such repentance is a dreadful falsehood against Him. But of course, such repentance and forgiveness is only made possible by the atoning death of Christ. 'Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.'
Your claim that 'retributive justice' does not have regard to the person but the sin is also quite wrong. Here we go again: 'He who justifies the wicked [person] and he who condemns the just [person] are both of them alike an abomination to the LORD.'
Psalm 5:6. 'You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.' It is not only the bloodthirstiness and deceit that God abhors, but the people as well (c.f. also Proverbs 6:16-19. It is not only the lies that God hates, but the false witness who speaks them etc.).
Penal Substitution
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Oct 23, 2017.
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The simple fact is that we have to understand these things within a context or we will not understand at all. Throughout history the environment in which the Church found itself contributed to its doctrine. The failing her is an inability to objectively view Scripture. You see the passages you provide only through the context you have provided. That is the ground upon which you stand, and therefore you cannot go any further.
Thank you for the interaction. I didn't think you would stay as I refused to argue (or even reveal) my view and left the burden of proof on you. You simply can't prove what isn't there. -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Penal Substitution is rooted in the character of God as He revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 34:6-7. “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding with goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty.” Immediately the question arises, how can God be merciful and gracious, how can He forgive iniquity, transgression and sin without clearing the guilty? How can He clear the guilty if He abounds with truth—if He is a ‘just Judge’ (Psalm 7:11)? How can it be said that, ‘Mercy and truth have met together; righteousness and peace have kissed’ unless God can simultaneously punish sin and forgive sinners? The answer is that ‘God……devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him’ (2 Samuel 14:14). Those means are Penal Substitution. “Learn ye, my friends, to look upon God as being as severe in His justice as if He were not loving, and yet as loving as if He were not severe. His love does not diminish His justice nor does His justice, in the least degree, make warfare upon His love. The two are sweetly linked together in the atonement of Christ” (C.H. Spurgeon). -
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First PST is a Trojan horse for Limited Atonement. PST teaches that Christ died for the specific sins of those individual chosen to be saved. Both concepts are mistaken.
Christ died for the sin of the world. Any individual transferred into Christ will undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration, and arise in Christ a new creation, made perfect, righteous and holy.
Penal substitution holds Christ died for the specific sins of specific individuals, thus advocates Limited Atonement. This is the elephant in the room.
The other view is Christ died for the sin of the world, all mankind. When any individual is placed spiritually into Christ, their sins, past, present and future, are taken away, removed by the Circumcision of Christ.
Here are the two views of Christ’s Substitutionary Sacrifice on the cross.
Christ died for the specific sins of the elect.
Christ died for the sin of all mankind, elect and non-elect.
If Christ died for the specific sins of all mankind, then God is demanding "double payment" punishing Christ for the specific sins of those in hell, and punishing those in hell for their sins.
Often you will see the line, "Christ died for our sins" but "our" is not defined as all mankind or as the elect. Hence a Trojan horse, with a "hidden" agenda.
Unless you define "your" view of PSA as Christ dying for the sin of all mankind, you are pushing Limited Atonement. Please provide a quote that supports your assertion.
Here is one view: "Kenneth J. Collins in his book "The Theology of John Wesley: Holy Love and the Shape of Grace" writes, "for Wesley, Christ makes compensation and satisfies the justice of God precisely by standing in the place of sinful humanity," Note that this view refers to "sinful humanity" not "sinners" as in specific individuals.
Show me a quote that says PSA refers to Christ dying for "sinful humanity" today. That little tidbit is left out of the definitions found today. PSA today refers to the Reformed view.
Here is the Wikipedia definition: "Penal substitution (sometimes, esp. in older writings, called forensic theory) is a theory of the atonement within Christian theology, developed with the Reformed tradition. It argues that Christ, by his own sacrificial choice, was punished (penalized) in the place of sinners (substitution)...." Note the reference to specific "sinners."
Again, if you define PSA as Christ dying for all mankind, you are referring to an old and outdated view.
Calvin and a few other Reformation theologians linked the concept of the elect and of predestination to the Penal Theory. They taught that God selected a small percentage of people before their birth to form "the elect." They were not chosen because of any special achievement on their part. They did not deserve to be selected. They were chosen by a process known only to God. Philosopher Michael Martin explains: "Those who have faith in Jesus and are, therefore, saved are the elect of God. Their faith comes as a gift of God through the Holy Spirit...those who are saved through this gift were predestined to have this gift bestowed upon them." 3 Thus, Yeshua died, not to repay the debt for the sins of all humanity, but only for the sins of the elect. -
Can even God forgive sinners who repent and confess , without that lamb substituted in their stead? -
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May I butt in to this thread.
There is this concept that God PUNISHED Himself.
That is just not supported in Scripture.
As I shared on a different thread, God was pleased that Christ suffered. However the suffering WAS NOT From God’s hand.
Rather, all that was doing the punishment was by the ungodly nature which occurs anytime God withholds support.
Through Scripture, in EVERY instance in which God’s wrath is displayed, it is by humans and nature occurring as a result of God withholding support.
This was the events of the cross.
There is only ONE place in all Scripture where God very directly by His own strength brings the wrath. That is at the second coming when the forces of this ungodly world are crushed by His sword.
God did not punish His Son, He was (according to Isaiah 53:10) pleased to allow what humans and nature do because it is what they by the ungodly authority do.
Now, I will bow out. -
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Do you beleive that God has an active wrath towards sins and sinners, that there is a judgement towards them that involves wrath coming down upon them? -
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