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Plain Sense Syllogisms from Acts 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Tim, Oct 23, 2005.

  1. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    In other words, you choose option "A", i.e. "Peter was wrong" (even though he was filled with the Holy Spirit as he delivered this sermon).

    This is one of the problems I have with dispensational teachers. They know more than Christian leaders who studied the scriptures for the first 1800 years of the church, and they even know more than the Spirit-filled apostles.
     
  2. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    I’ll ask you again, what picture or illustration was Peter making if none of the things Joel spoke of were happening or soon to happen? It would be like showing a picture of cats to someone and telling them this is my family.

    If say to me “this is my family” then show me a picture of them, have you not show me your family? Do you really mean this is like my family? If so, what does that mean “like my family”? Is that “like” your wife or is it your wife?

    So what was happening on Pentecost or soon thereafter that is “like” what will happen in the future? If it is just a picture of some future literal fulfillment then its elements must be found in that time-frame of Peter. What happened in that time that is a picture or “like” future events found in Acts 2:19-20? So pull out your wallet and show me a picture of this in Peter’s day:

    Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
    Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

    And I explained to you that Jesus said exactly what He meant to say. When Jesus said the bread was His body, then it was His body. Not in a physical literal sense as Catholics believe, but in a metaphoric literal sense. If Jesus meant “this is like my body” then it changes the meaning of the message. Jesus was the Lamb of God, not “like a lamb” of God. “Like a Lamb” is not a Lamb. If you take away the “lamb” then you lose all the meaning of the metaphor that “lamb” entails. The same goes for the “blood and body” of Jesus in the bread and wine.

    To change “this is” to “this is like” changes the meaning.


    How true.

    Option 4: Peter and Joel were correct and you are wrong.

    I don't deny the meaning of Joel's words, I deny your meaning of Joels words. It is you who deny what Peter said, so in order to help him out you insert the word "like".

    Do you believe that none of the things that are found in Acts 2 from Joel’s prophecy were fulfilled in Peter’s day?

    Here are some more questions you never answered.

    Here is your statement earlier in this thread:

    Tom, I think that Paul is a great comparison. When Paul talks of the last days, he is referring to things that are actually going on. Joel's comments on the last days also refer to things, but when we read Acts 2 we can see that they aren't going on.

    1. So what “last days” do you believe Paul was speaking of?

    2. What do you believe Is. 13 speaks of and do you take it “literally”? Verse 10 is using the same type of language as Joel and Peter. Is verse 10 to be literally physically interpreted? Does Is. 13 use literal language, figurative language or both?

    Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
     
  3. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    PL,

    I was just going to point out a flaw in your "photograph" analogy. Grasshopper stole much of my thunder with his post above, but let me add one thing.

    Your analogy has a problem because of expectations. By that I mean that good communication accounts for the expectations of the audience.

    No one expects a photograph to actually be your family, so using the phrase "this is" does not lead them to a false conclusion.

    However, people DO expect prophecies to be fulfilled by coming events. So if someone explains an unusual event by referrring to a prophecy of old and says "this is that", it DOES lead them to conclude that the event foretold is now beginning to take place.

    Since prophecies from the OT were known to contain dramatic statements about the heavens in relationship to judgement upon nations, Peter's audience would not necessarily have expected the events to occur physically.

    That's why the interpretation that the events did unfold at Pentecost and soon thereafter is a more "plain sense" understanding of the sermon.
     
  4. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    In other words, you choose option "A", i.e. "Peter was wrong" (even though he was filled with the Holy Spirit as he delivered this sermon).

    This is one of the problems I have with dispensational teachers. They know more than Christian leaders who studied the scriptures for the first 1800 years of the church, and they even know more than the Spirit-filled apostles.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hmmm...

    It could be that in a way your back-handed compliment is quite correct in the area of end-time prophesy.

    "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall
    be increased." Dan. 12:4
     
  5. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Well, the great Puritan Baptist John Owen disagrees with you as does John Lightfoot:

    John Owen (1721)
    'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
    ' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
    'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).

    Li2 Peter 3:13: 'We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth.' The heaven and the earth of the Jewish church and commonwealth must be all on fire, and the Mosaic elements burnt up; but we, according to the promise made to us by Isaiah the prophet, when all these are consumed, look for the new creation of the evangelical state" (vol. 3, p.453)

    Lightfoot:

    "That the destruction of Jerusalem and the whole Jewish state is described as if the whole frame of the world were to be dissolved. Nor is it strange, when God destroyed his habitation and city, places once so dear to him, with so direful and sad an overthrow; his own people, whom he accounted of as much or more than the whole world beside, by so dreadful and amazing plagues. Matt. 24:29,30, 'The sun shall be darkened &c. Then shall appear the 'sign of the Son of man,' &c; which yet are said to fall out within that generation, ver. 34. 2 Pet. 3:10, 'The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,' &c. Compare with this Deut. 32:22, Heb. 12:26: and observe that by elements are understood the Mosaic elements, Gal 4:9, Coloss. 2:20: and you will not doubt that St. Peter speaks only of the conflagration of Jerusalem, the destruction of the nation, and the abolishing the dispensation of Moses" (vol. 3, p. 452).
    </font>[/QUOTE]Frankly Grasshopper I don't care if Gordon Lightfoot disagrees with me as well. I could also list many theologians that disagree with your Preterist view. So what?

    So far you have incorrectly said that Zech. 12 was fulfilled in 70AD when it is clear that just the opposite of that prophesy states came to pass in 70AD. God did not defend Israel and destroy the nations that came up against it. But rather just the opposite occurred.

    And you argued that John the Baptist was the end time Elijah when Jesus clearly put forth this qualifier in Mt. 11:14: "And if ye will receive it (the kingdom), this is Elias, which was for to come." Well, did Israel receive the Kingdom? No. Acts 28:17-31. So then, John was not the end time Elijah.

    And BTW, you incorrectly bolded the later end of verse 14 in your post on page 1. How could you have read this passage and not seen the requirement for Israel to receive Christ and His Kingdom for the latter part of the verse to be fulfilled? Your eyes see what you want them to see. Mt. 11:15

    You also incorrectly argued that the Jews saw Jesus coming to judge Jerusalem in 70AD when Rev. 1:7 clearly states that everyone, Jews and Gentiles alike, will see Him coming in the clouds. And BTW, not every Jews was destroyed in 70AD. If they all saw Him alive in heavens, why then didn't they repent the way Paul did with such great proof that He is Lord?
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Tim: //Your analogy has a problem because of expectations. By that I mean that good communication accounts for the expectations of the audience.//

    Peter may have known about the audience before him;
    God knew for thousands of years other people
    from strange tribes (i.e. Gentiles) and from
    strange languages (English) would know of what Peter
    said. So the language that Peter used, was guided
    by the newly fallen Holy Spirit.

    I find nothing wrong with believing that
    the 'last days' have lasted two thousand years
    and counting. Of course, h'm a historical
    dispensationalist (who believes in the Biblical
    concept of 'dispensation' as described in the
    N.T. the six times 'dispensation' is used.
     
  7. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    In other words, you choose option "A", i.e. "Peter was wrong" (even though he was filled with the Holy Spirit as he delivered this sermon).

    This is one of the problems I have with dispensational teachers. They know more than Christian leaders who studied the scriptures for the first 1800 years of the church, and they even know more than the Spirit-filled apostles.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Tim. The following was my answer to your quiz.
    Number one was C: The prophecy was fulfilled at Pentecost, but the devil is in the details.

    Number 2 was B:

    Number 3 was B:

    As to your problem with the dispensational gospel of Christ Jesus that He revealed to Paul, Paul tells us even as he lived all of Asia had left the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven, but for a few. The Spirit-filled Apostles you refer to know only in Acts 2 what was known at that time. The Christian gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven revealing the Body of Christ church was some few years later at the happening on Damascus Road. You bet we know more than the Spirit filled Apostles with the knowledge given them by Jesus while He was Man, and walked this earth. We now have the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven, our living Lord as He sits next to our Savior God our Father, and which Peter later acknowledged in II Peter, which Peter says came by the wisdom of Christ that was given to Paul.

    What are you going to do with Damascus Road (Gentiles will hear and believe)? That means Israel didn’t believe and Israel was cut-off as Jesus said could happen to them in the parable of the “fig tree”? It is no longer up to “them”, but now We heathen Gentiles to spread the “Grace Commission” of God that come through the faith of Jesus Christ. The gospel of Christ Jesus today is “Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved”. Then we “work out our own salvation” as to where we will be in the Body of Christ.

    If we are able to work around these things by the “knowledge” of the so called Fathers, what do these “Fathers” of 1800 years, and we today say to II Corinthians 5:16-18 and on, ”Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;……”

    Have we left the gospel of Paul, as did all Asia? There was no Body of Christ until Christ said there was. Before the gospels was the “kingdom is at hand” if we are to believe John the Baptist, and Jesus while on earth. We today are of the “heavenlies”, and not of those that will go marching into that “kingdom”, coming through the tribulation. I am not going through the tribulation, and I dare say you as a Christian most likely believe just as I. I look to the “Rapture”, and not that “Kingdom” that will come after we are “caught up”, and after the Tribulation. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  8. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    EE,

    "Dispensation" as used in the NT simply means "administration". It does not prove the validity of the theological system known as dispensationalism, any more than the word "covenant" in the NT proves the validity of the system known as covenant theology (and it's in there a lot more times).
     
  9. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Hmmm...

    It could be that in a way your back-handed compliment is quite correct in the area of end-time prophesy.

    "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall
    be increased." Dan. 12:4 [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]So, how am I to know that YOUR new knowledge is more correct than the Charismatics' new knowledge, or even the cults?

    Once you put yourself in the position of understanding what the Spirit inspired Peter to say better than Peter did, I suppose anything is possible.
     
  10. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    itutut,

    Paul did not preach a different gospel from Peter. And sorry to burst your balloon, but you clearly do NOT understand what Peter said in Acts 2 better than Peter did.

    Even if Peter didn't understand it, what he said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit was correct. God didn't change his plan after Pentecost so that all the prophetic fulfillments had to be put off for a later date.

    Yours sounds like a radical form of dispensationalism that undercuts the unity of scripture.
     
  11. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Hmmm...

    It could be that in a way your back-handed compliment is quite correct in the area of end-time prophesy.

    "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall
    be increased." Dan. 12:4
    </font>[/QUOTE]So, how am I to know that YOUR new knowledge is more correct than the Charismatics' new knowledge, or even the cults?

    Once you put yourself in the position of understanding what the Spirit inspired Peter to say better than Peter did, I suppose anything is possible. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]This has nothing to do with general knowledge of the Bible. But rather specifically the end times prophesy of Daniel.

    For instance, when it says in Scripture that "every eye shall see Him", we now know that through satellite TV this is possible. And also a 200 million man army was a ridiculous notion until present day China came along. Besides, this knowledge will be increased by God. Unless you don't believe Dan. 12:4.

    Another sign will be the exponential increase of technical knowledge that is clearly evident starting in the late 19th century and continues today.

    More proof BTW that Preterists are wrong since no such thing happened in or around 70AD.
     
  12. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Yes, I know the Apostle to the Gentiles does sound that way to many. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  13. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Grasshopper wrote:

    No one is saying that none of the things came to pass. As I argued earlier the "that" in the verse is singular, and Peter may have been stating that the "last days" were now upon them.

    Please note, that Peter's first reference was to the last days. Not necessarily the fulfillment of any of the prophesies that surely did not happen that day. Such as "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
    And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:"

    I would like to see from you or your fellow preterists a Scripture referrence from anywhere in the book of Acts where any of those things came to pass that day, or that week.

    Verse 2:21 came to pass as a future prophesy from Joel's time when Jesus clearly gave the Gospel in such places as John 6:40,46; 11:25-25, etc.

    To clear this up one must go back to Joel 2 where Jesus tells the Jewish nation that He will make their nation a place of plenty, and that in verse 2:27 they will know that He is "the LORD your God". I would hope that even preterists would not argue that this has come to pass yet, let alone in 70AD. (see Romans 11)

    Now look to a key word in verse 28 where Peter got his referrence. That word is "afterward". Note that only after Jesus appears to Israel blesses the land and when they know that He is God their Savior do these prophesies come to pass. Peter doesn't say "afterward", he says "last days" instead.

    So then, he is either saying that the "that" is the last days, or he is saying what Pastor Larry has argued that 'this is like' would fit as well.

    Now verse 2:32 in Joel and Acts 2:21 need no time frame since this truth now gets to be applied to future Israel when it becomes clear just Who their Lord is, and are willing to call upon the precious name of Jesus. Something that is anathema to them at the present time. Just like in 70AD.
     
  14. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Does Jack VanImpe really count as a theologian? [​IMG]

    I like your Gordon Lightfoot reference. [​IMG]

    I showed you those commentators because you said this about 2 Peter 3:

    I would have to say that any honest preterist has to admit that the last part of this prophesy hasn't come to pass yet. At least I hope so.

    Actually we were speaking of Zech 12:10 which John says was fulfilled at the Cross. It was at this point you started expressing your theories of gaps and double fulfillments. Why are there passages in Zech 12 and 13 that have their fulfillment in the NT if it is still future to us? Keep in mind the Bible speaks of two Jerusalems and notice all the "in that day" references of Zech 12-14. I don't think you can split it into separate pieces.

    You better re-read Malachi 4. John was the fulfillment of that prophecy.

    Why do you assume the “it” means the Kingdom? Jesus says John was the Elijah:

    Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
    Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
    Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already , and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
    Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

    The coming Elijah nor the Kingdom were conditional on Jewish acceptance.

    Furthermore, I’m not sure the word “it” was even in the original texts.

    Spiritual Israel did.

    Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
    Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

    The Kingdom was not conditional despite what LaHaye and others say. The Kingdom wasn’t postponed; it was given to another nation:

    Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    When and how does this happen in your dispie interpretation? When is Matt 21:43 fulfilled?

    So where exactly in verse 15 does it say the Kingdom was conditional on Jewish belief?

    11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
    Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
    Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
    Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Seems the only ones who recognized that John was Elijah were those who’s ears were opened. Today, it seems that the Dispies are still waiting for their ears to be opened.

    Can you show me passages that state the Kingdom of God was conditional on Jewish acceptance? Dan. 2 mentions the establishment of the Kingdom, is it stated there? Perhaps read Ps. 2:1-4 to see how God reacts to rejection.

    His coming was not His physical presence but His coming in Judgment on Jerusalem. Jesus told the Sanhedrin they would see His coming on the clouds, did they??

    Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
    Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    So did they see it?

    You also never answered my question regarding Rev 1:1,3. Why as a literalist do you take Rev 1:7 out of the time-frame that is given to us in Rev 1:1,3?

    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass ; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand .

    Now interpret Rev 1:7 within the time context it is given in.

    Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

    Remember you also need 200 million horses. Does China have those as well?

    Now for the literal translation:

    Re 9:16 and the number of the forces of the horsemen [is] two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them.

    Do some research on what a myriad is.

    Dan 12:4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    1.Why was Daniel told to seal up his book and John was told not to seal his?

    Rev 22:10 And he said to me, Do not seal the Words of the prophecy of this Book; for the time is at hand.

    2.Was end that Daniel spoke of different than the one Peter spoke of?

    1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

    3. Knowledge is in reference to the Gospel/New Covenant message, not algebra and physics.

    Luk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

    Rom 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

    2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


    Co 8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

    Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

    2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

    Don't suppose you have a scripture reference for this?

    Apparently you missed my earlier post.

    Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,

    Fulfilled:

    Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
    Act 21:10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.

    and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

    Fulfilled:

    Act 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

    Act 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;

    Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
    Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,

    Figurative language right out of the OT. Referring to the dissolution of the Mosaic economy/Old Covenant. Perhaps you would like to answer the question of Is. 13:10. Was it fulfilled literally or has it even been fulfilled yet?

    before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

    The same day that Malachi told of and which Jesus said John was the fulfillment of Elijah.

    Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and
    dreadful day of the LORD:

    Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Fulfilled:

    Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


    Of course I'm sure ther were many more examples that were not recorded in Scripture.

    Really, and I always thought the early Church was made up exclusively of Jews.

    However, you just contradicted yourself, you said Acts 2:21 did come to pass:

    Verse 2:21 came to pass as a future prophesy from Joel's time when Jesus clearly gave the Gospel in such places as John 6:40,46; 11:25-25, etc.
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Grasshopper: //Why are there passages in Zech 12 and 13 that have their fulfillment in the NT if it is still future to us?//

    Cause that is the way God let Zech. see the events.
    Zech. only saw ONE comming of the Messiah:
    By N.T. times two Comings of Jesus were seen.

    Here is something known only in the N.T. and not known
    in the O.T.:

    ------------------------------------
    1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

    Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
    10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
    "Why do you speak to them in parables?"
    11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
    has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
    OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
    not been given.

    The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
    given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

    I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
    describe the Church Age. The Church Age
    goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
    During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
    humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
    to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
    This period in HIS-story can also be called
    "the age of the gentiles".
    ----------------------------------------

    Note that the mystery of 'the Kingdom of Heaven'
    is the church age - the time between the two
    comings of Jesus.

    But then folks want to get bet out of shape
    because the Second Coming of Jesus (Phase one)
    is at the beginning of a 7-year-'day of the Lord'
    and the Second Coming of Jesus (Phase two) is at
    the end of a 7-year-'day of the Lord'. Oh well,
    hope springs eternal ... .
     
  16. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    EE,

    You and JackRus & itutut obviously disagree on these mysteries. You're quoting that Jesus said the revelation of them was given to the disciples, while the others were saying that the revelation of the mysteries was reserved for Paul, or maybe for the dispenationalists.

    I'll go with your view about who they were revealed to--the disciples. But I don't see anything in the NT where the disciples taught this seven years between returns idea.They must not have thought it was a very important mystery.
     
  17. R. Charles Blair

    R. Charles Blair New Member

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    Once again, just about everything has been said that could be said, but no one has said what kind of "light" that "Galilee of the Gentiles" saw (Matt. 4:13-16). Tim, I am in basic agreement with your position as stated throughout this post, and with some of the things said by other
    individuals; much with which I disagree, also.

    Just to respond to a question from JackRUS: You asked for places where any of these things (Joel) were fulfilled in Acts 2, other than salvation.

    The same Greek verb is used in Acts 2:17, 18, AND
    33, though KJ translates differently in 33. It has to do with "pouring out" (KJ says "shed forth"
    in 33). Was not the Holy Spirit "poured out" on this day? Peter said He was, just as Joel said.

    Did not those waiting in the upper room (Acts 1),
    "sons and daughters," prophesy when the Spirit was poured out? Surely 2:6-11 indicates this.

    Were there not "wonders in the heavens above," 2:2, and "signs in the earth beneath," 2:3-4?
    Was there not "fire", v. 3? Yes, it was "as of fire." See Luke (same author), 3:22. Was not the "sign" of the "dove" a symbol of the Holy Spirit, and is not the "fire" also a symbol? And if "fire" is a symbol, why not "blood" and "vapor of smoke"? (And for that matter, "sun" & "moon"?)

    And remember that Luke was writing this AFTER any
    new "revelation" given to Paul, and presumably would have had knowledge of any such information.
    How can we say that the early chapters of Acts were only for the Jews when written by a Gentile, who was a close companion of Paul? One of Peter's main points, usually overlooked, is that the message was NOT merely for Jews, but also "to
    all that are afar off," clearly Gentiles - cp. Eph. 2:11-14. This was a clear reference to the "far-off place" allocated to "God-fearing" Gentiles outside the Temple, those (like Cornelius) who were not even proselytes but were quite interested in the Jewish faith. The Roman centurion whose faith was already greater than any in Israel, Mt. 8:5-13, may have been one of these, or possibly a proselyte, though the latter was highly unlikely for high Roman officials.

    Now: one which may need to be another thread, and which will certainly be highly controversial. My position is that NOTHING started in Acts 2. You can search the English in any translation; you may search the Greek; you may look at the old Syriac; you will not find the words "start,"
    "begin," "build," "form", etc. in any verb or noun usage in Acts 2. The only use of the word
    "new" refers to wine, v. 13. And Acts 1:1 makes it abundantly clear that Acts gives us nothing new, but only a continuation of "all that Jesus began both to do and to teach." Christianity begins with CHRIST, not with Pentecost (or later); when Jesus said, in Mt. 16:18, "I will build My church," He was not speaking of starting anything, but of continuing something already present. The verb never means to lay a foundation or to start to build; it is a future of continuous action, used also by Paul in Eph. 2:20, marking the direct continuity of churches in his day with the work of Christ and the chosen apostles (cp. I Cor. 12:28, "some in the church, first apostles"). If the moderator feels that this latter is another subject, "the moderator is always right," but I couldn't resist a bit of my
    "old landmarkism" as an antidote to too much dispensationalism (IMHO).

    Wishing you all His best - won't be around for the next few days to look at any replies, as I'll be away teaching some Bible classes. Bro. Charles - Ro. 8:28
     
  18. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Brother Charles.
    I'm a Baptist who happens to believe that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit is salvation as received one time. I don't believe in two Holy Spirit indwellings as do most Charismatics. So my "other than salvation" argument stands.

    I would also argue that the "old men" and "sons and daughters" of Joel's prophesy refers to all of the Jewish nation upon His return. Not a small remnant that received Him in the first century.
     
  19. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Grasshopper.
    Frankly it doesn't matter if the "it" is present in Mt. 11:24 since the question is if you will receive, which they in fact didn't.

    You wrote:
    I would suggest that you read John 12:48 and Romans 11:7-11. And I don't see where Ps. 2:1-4 supports your argument that God accepts Israel and sets up the Kingdom for them even if they reject Him?

    And Acts 28:20-31 has Paul explaining that Israel rejected the kingdom. SO he went instead to the Gentiles. This fact is also stated in Romans 11:7-11.

    As for Rev. 1:1-3, the things that shortly came to pass are recorded in the first three chapters of Revelation. It is you that hasn't answered why Jesus said that every eye would see Him, Gentiles and Jews alike in verse 7. Nor did you answer why the Jews that didn't die in the raid on Jerusalem in 70AD that you said all literally saw Him, were not saved. Or at least they should have noted that Jesus was the Messiah after all.

    You wrote:
    Anyone knows that a myriad is 10,000. And the horsemen here is not the army from China. It's demons that are released to plague the inhabitants of Earth.

    You asked:
    Dan. 12:4. And you might also check out some history. Men were horse and bugy for the last 6,000 years. WHat would you say has happened to transportation in the last 150 years? (Hint, Neil Armstrong)

    And I of course reject the rest of your post out of hand, including this:
    Wasn't Caleb a Gentile saint? How early was the Church anyway? Care is research the OT Scriptures for any other Gentile saints. (Hint, Caleb was not alone)
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Tim: //You and JackRus & itutut obviously disagree on these mysteries.//

    Strangely, that doesn't prove a thing. Quite frankly I
    don't agree TOTALLY with anybody. If I did, one of us would
    be redundant and I would be the one. However, we agree on
    everything that matters. I believe the mid-tribbers,
    pre-wrathers, and both kinds of posties will be raptured
    in the pretribulation rapture, unless the Lord tarries.

    Here are all 13 of the mysteries, not just one:
    -----------------------------------------------
    The New Testament Mysteries point to
    the veracity of the pretrib rapture position.


    1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

    Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
    10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
    "Why do you speak to them in parables?"
    11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
    has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
    OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
    not been given.

    The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
    given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

    I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
    describe the Church Age. The Church Age
    goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
    During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
    humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
    to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
    This period in HIS-story can also be called
    "the age of the gentiles".

    2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

    Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
    For I do not desire, brethren, that you
    should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
    should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
    in part has happened to Israel until the
    fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
    26. And so all Israel will be saved,

    I've had several interesting discussions
    with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
    prospects that when the last possible gentile
    (Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
    as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
    resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
    Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
    of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


    3. Mystery of the Rapture

    1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
    Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
    but we will all be changed -- ...

    1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

    Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
    looking for the blessed hope and
    glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
    Christ

    Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
    when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
    for after the tribulation there will only be a few
    handfuls of living saints.


    4. Mystery of His Will

    Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
    And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
    to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
    10 to be put into effect when the times will have
    reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
    in heaven and on earth together under one head,
    even Christ.
    11 In him we were also chosen, having
    been predestined according to the plan of him who
    works out everything in conformity with
    the purpose of his will,
    12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
    Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

    May God's will be done!

    From Eternity past God has intended
    to bring all things together in Christ.

    This joining inclues the gentile church and
    the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
    rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
    of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
    to bring Yisrael back to Him.


    5. Mystery of Christ:
    the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

    Ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

    2 Surely you have heard about the administration
    of God's grace that was given to me for you,
    3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
    as I have already written briefly.
    4 In reading this, then, you will be able
    to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
    5 which was not made known to men in other generations
    as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
    to God's holy apostles and prophets.
    6 This mystery is that through the gospel
    the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
    members together of one body, and sharers
    together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
    7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
    gift of God's grace given me through the working
    of his power.
    8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
    people, this grace was given me: to preach to
    the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
    9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
    of this mystery, which for ages past was
    kept hidden in God, who created all things.
    10 His intent was that now, through the church,
    the manifold wisdom of God should be made
    known to the rulers and authorities in
    the heavenly realms,
    11 according to his eternal purpose
    which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    12 In him and through faith in him
    we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

    This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
    define "mystery".

    The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
    are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
    At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
    of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
    to bring Yisrael back to Him.

    BTW, Ephesians 3:2 the word "administration"
    in the NIV is rendered "dispensation"
    in the KJV1769.


    6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

    Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

    for we are members of his body.
    31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
    and mother and be united to his wife,
    and the two will become one flesh."
    32 This is a profound mystery--but I
    am talking about Christ and the church.
    33 However, each one of you also must
    love his wife as he loves himself,
    and the wife must respect her husband

    Revelation 19: (NIV):

    Let us rejoice and be glad
    and give him glory!
    For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
    and his bride has made herself ready.
    8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
    was given her to wear."
    (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

    Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
    before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
    or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


    7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

    John 15:4 (NIV)
    Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
    No branch can bear fruit by itself;
    it must remain in the vine.
    Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    Galations 2:20 (NIV)
    I have been crucified with Christ and I no
    longer live, but Christ lives in me.
    The life I live in the body, I live
    by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
    and gave himself for me.

    Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
    For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

    Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
    the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
    and generations, but is now disclosed
    to the saints.
    27 To them God has chosen to make known
    among the Gentiles the glorious
    riches of this mystery, which is
    Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
    beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
    within each saint!

    What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
    ALL GLORY!

    What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


    8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

    Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
    attaining to all riches
    of the full assurance of understanding, to the
    knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
    the Father and of Christ,

    1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
    But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
    the hidden wisdom which God ordained
    before the ages for our glory.

    Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
    this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
    certainly before the Church Age.
    And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
    in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
    which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

    How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
    God, if have to go through the Tribulation period
    as some nay-sayers promote?


    9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

    This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
    master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
    in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
    Will Jesus let His Church be around when
    the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

    2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
    For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
    work; only He who now restrains will do so
    until He is taken out of the way.
    And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

    Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
    pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
    2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
    in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

    [2]1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
    2. Day of Christ:
    -2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
    --removal of the restrainer
    -2b. the revelation of the man of sin
    -2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
    -2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    -2e. the destruction of the man of sin[/2]

    2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
    But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
    you and guard you from the evil one.

    And this is all summed up in one word:

    '\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


    10. Mystery of Godliness

    1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
    And without controversy great
    is the mystery of Godliness:

    God was manifested in the flesh,
    Justified in the Spirit,
    Seen by angels,
    Preached among the Gentiles,
    Believed on in the world,
    Received up in glory.

    And that is just what God had done up
    to the time of the writing.
    Later He will:

    Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
    Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
    Return to earth at the Second Advent
    Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
    Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


    11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

    Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
    The mystery of the seven stars which you
    saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
    lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
    the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
    which you saw are the seven churches.

    Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
    the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
    in double completeness.
    And when the church on earth is complete,
    the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
    And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
    take place in heaven as the Tribulation
    takes place on earth.


    12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:

    This mystery forcasts the final
    world apostate church of
    the Tribulation after the Rapture.

    Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

    And on her forehead a name was written:
    MYSTERY,
    BABYLON THE GREAT,
    THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
    ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


    13. Mystery of God

    This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
    program to consummate history during the
    the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

    All the mystery prophecies concerning the
    Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
    relevant to Israel
    and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

    Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
    but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
    angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
    of God would be finished, as He declared
    to His servants the prophets.
     
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