Poll: Would You Accept A Church of Christ Immersion as a Valid NT Baptism?

Tom, I appreciate your views on this subject. They make a lot of sense. But how do you reconcile the account written by Luke in Ch. 9 with Paul's own account as he stood before the Jews in Ch. 22? Particularly, v. 16: "'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.' " I don't want to argue about it, I really just want to know what you think.

 

Tom,

Yeah, I know it is. There are several verses concerning salvation and baptism that seem to conflict with other verses, unless we do some sort of acrobatic interpretation to get around them. I think it really all comes down to a couple of things: (1) We should never have staked out positions on either side of baptism as to when salvation occurs. If we (by we I mean those on both sides of the argument) had just accepted that we're saved by grace through faith and that Jesus said to be immersed in His name and not tried to split hairs as to exactly what happens when, we would all be better off. (2) Baptism seems to be a meeting of the physical and the spiritual and as such it just may be that we're not really going to understand how it, or God, actually "works". For me, this meeting of the physical and spiritual ties back to the Incarnation - how is Jesus fully God and fully man at the same time? God knows?

Also, concerning Paul: I think the reason Ananias refers to Paul as "brother" is because he is a brother Jew. It could mean what you say it means, but that is contradicted by what he later tells Paul about "wash your sins away", as noted above. But like I said, I think we try to split hairs too much about when salvation occurs - it could just be that Ananias considered Saul/Paul to be in the process of being saved although the deal had not been fully sealed by immersion.

I really wish I could just accept the majority view on immersion and salvation, I really do. Life would be much simpler. I struggled with this for years and it was the book on baptism by Beasley-Murray that finally convinced me that our understanding needed some adjustment.

Anyway, as I said to Marcia, my point isn't really to convince anyone that they are wrong, just that another understanding isn't unreasonable and shouldn't be a reason for not accepting someone immersed with that different understanding.

I hope this makes sense. I came into work about two hours early this morning and am still somewhat incoherent and so I apologize for any gross spelling or grammatical errors.

 

Marcia,

One question - why on earth would you have been immersed if you didn't believe in Jesus? Didn't you have to make a confession that you believed Jesus to be the Son of God before you were baptized? If someone dunked you knowing you weren't a believer, that was just wrong.

Thanks,

Les

 

Tom,

Yes, I can see how some folks would interpret and view salvation/baptism the way you do, although I don't agree.

I still maintain that we would all have been better off if we just followed what Jesus said to do and let God sort out just exactly when the saving occurs. I think it varied, and probably still varies, from one individual to another. God is not locked in to any set procedure of how He is gonna do salvations.

Bottom line is we are saved by Grace through Faith, not by how well we understand the process.

Les

 

My mother thought it was time for me to be baptized. We happened to be visiting in her hometown and my great-grandfather had founded the church (a Baptist one). My mother thought it would be nice for me to be baptized there. I guess the pastor went along with it because I gave the "right" answers. I did not want to mess this up for my mother or get her mad (I think she was a nominal Christian at the time and was that way until shortly until before she died). I thought it was kind of neat because I was being treated in a special way and getting attention. I absolutely did not understand the true significance - to me it was just something you did at a certain age. I did believe Jesus had lived historically and was a real person and I thought this meant I "believed" in Jesus (or so I told myself).

I deliberately rejected Chrisitanity in high school, concluding it was empty and boring, and thus began my spiritual journey which led to Eastern religions, astrology, and the New Age.

 

I know you were addressing Tom so this is an interjection from me. It's not a question of when or how we are saved, but what the Bible teaches on baptism. It clearly does not teach the CoC view and therefore, we are to "contend for the faith" and not accept false doctrine. 1 and 2 Timothy and other books tell us to hold to sound doctrine.

It's not a question of God being "locked" into something but what does He teach in His word that is the issue.

 

Oh yes, I realize that Dr. Beasley-Murray and I are definitely not the Baptist norm, and you're right it does hurt, sometimes a lot.

 

Hey, no problem, feel free to interject. Bless your heart you did get a false start it sounds like. I am glad God brought you through all that. Although I think you are being a little unreasonable I do respect your determination to "contend for the faith" as you see it.

 

Here's a link to an article on baptism that I pretty much agree with. Y'all might find it interesting if you haven't already read it. It is from one of our theological journals.


http://www.sbts.edu/pdf/sbjt/SBJT_1998Spring2.pdf

 

lbaker, I appreciate the sentiments, but I did not have a "false start" so much as that I willingly rejected God and Jesus Christ as Savior at an age when I could do that (high school and beyond, when I became hostile and hardened toward the gospel).

I want to clarify something though -- are you saying I am being "unreasonable" by defending the teachings of scripture re the fact that we are not saved at water baptism?

Note I say "water baptism" which is the topic here, because when we are saved, we are "baptized" into Christ and "baptized" by the Holy Spirit. The water baptism comes afterward to represent this and our identificiation with Jesus' death and resurrection.

 

Les here: My understanding (reasonable or not in your opinion) is that when Paul talks about being baptized into Christ he is referring to water baptism at which time we receive the Gift of the Spirit.

Did you get a chance to read that article I mentioned in the earlier post?

 

So you are equating water baptism with receiving the Holy Spirit or with salvation or with both? The NT clearly gives examples where people receive the HS before baptism.

I have the article bookmarked but have not been able to read it yet. I'll start it but if it's too long, confusing, or difficult, I just don't have time for that.

Whether a CoC person is a believer or not is not the issue, so please don't make it about that. What we are to look at as Christians is how they (or anyone) misuse the Bible to teach what they do about baptism. It's wrong according to God's word.

 

<<But what about "wash away your sins?" Since I think we agree that baptism does not save us, what, then, does it mean? >>

Are you washed in the Blood of the Lamb?? (old gospel song)

Here's another one:
There is a fountain filled with blood
drawn from Emmanuel's veins;
and sinners plunged beneath that flood
lose all their guilty stains.
Lose all their guilty stains,
lose all their guilty stains;
and sinners plunged beneath that flood
lose all their guilty stains.


There's your answer.