Because, somewhere in our heart and in our soul, we do believe that we are endowed by God with certain inalienable rights, among them are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. One of those rights includes the freedom to serve God as He has commanded without fear of government intrusion.
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Possible Attack of Freedom of Religion by the Obama Administration
- Thread starter Ruiz
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Because, somewhere in our heart and in our soul, we do believe that we are endowed by God with certain inalienable rights, among them are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. One of those rights includes the freedom to serve God as He has commanded without fear of government intrusion.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Perhaps because we have forgotten what the old hymns by Christians such as Isaac Watts say, such as:
"Must I be carried to the skies
on flowery beds of ease,
while others fought to win the prize,
and sailed through bloody seas?
...
Sure I must fight, if I would reign;
increase my courage, Lord.
I'll bear the toil, endure the pain,
supported by Thy word."
I think that nowadays lots of Christians in the United States are way more interested in political deliverance and relying on government protection instead of being interested in spiritual deliverance and relying on God's protection.
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NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Where do we find that right in scripture?
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I believe life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are Biblical issues. Life, we were made in God's image. Liberty, the entirety of the Christian life is to enjoy Liberty that is only found in God, where the Spirit of the Lord there is Liberty. Pursuit of happiness, we were created for joy unspeakable and full of glory. God did not create us to die, to be under tyrrany, or to be miserable. While we may realize life, liberty or happiness, they are God's glorious pleasures of our life.
No, happiness is not only a right, but a reality to those who are in Christ.
Haven't read the article yet; that's next. Just had to chime in about RAdam & Annsi's posts:
My basis for agreeing with Ken on this (and agreeing with Ken is hard to do
): I spent a year in Afghanistan as a military mentor/advisor. My job was to interact with both Afghans and Afghan interpreters on nearly a daily basis.
I now love chai (not that junk they sell in Starbuck's and call chai, but the real stuff) and qabali (a rice dish; I'm finally getting the hang of how to make it. Tricky part is the meat.).
BUT the biggest thing I learned about Muslims, is that they're just like Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, and everyone else. Some of the Afghans I interacted with said prayers before everything they did. Some of them went to mosque on Friday, and that was about it. One guy was the kind that, once he considered you a friend, he'd show you which drawer in his desk he kept the Scotch in, and which satellite TV channel you could watch porn. And the internet? Well, for a country that has a 70% illiteracy rate, you give them internet access and you'll start finding downloaded videos of stuff that I shall refrain from talking about.
Point is: It's been my experience in both Iraq and Afghanistan that people are the same everywhere, with the same levels of dedication to religion, politics, and just about everything else. The differences come when you start talking about where and how they were raised (i.e., cultural).
Um...no, it's not.
My basis for agreeing with Ken on this (and agreeing with Ken is hard to do
): I spent a year in Afghanistan as a military mentor/advisor. My job was to interact with both Afghans and Afghan interpreters on nearly a daily basis.I now love chai (not that junk they sell in Starbuck's and call chai, but the real stuff) and qabali (a rice dish; I'm finally getting the hang of how to make it. Tricky part is the meat.).
BUT the biggest thing I learned about Muslims, is that they're just like Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, and everyone else. Some of the Afghans I interacted with said prayers before everything they did. Some of them went to mosque on Friday, and that was about it. One guy was the kind that, once he considered you a friend, he'd show you which drawer in his desk he kept the Scotch in, and which satellite TV channel you could watch porn. And the internet? Well, for a country that has a 70% illiteracy rate, you give them internet access and you'll start finding downloaded videos of stuff that I shall refrain from talking about.
Point is: It's been my experience in both Iraq and Afghanistan that people are the same everywhere, with the same levels of dedication to religion, politics, and just about everything else. The differences come when you start talking about where and how they were raised (i.e., cultural).
FR7 Baptist
Active Member
Don, that's really interesting. Just out of curiosity, what are some of the more interesting aspects of Afghan culture that you learned while you were there?
I don't actually think that's the case. In fact, we're called to serve without regard to social and political climate.
Beautifully stated. And thanks for the Watts hymn.
Are there no foes for me to face?
Must I not stem the flood?
Is this vile world a friend to grace,
To help me on to God?
I agree, we should serve God no matter what. However, I do believe in protecting my children if needed and I believe the Hugenots and Calvin expressed well what a Christian view of Government entails. As her citizen, I hope we could sustain as close to that view as possible. Like others who opposed their government's tyrrany and overstepping of power, I think we should as well. John Milton was not wrong, nor was Wilberforce, nor were the many Pastors who stood up to Hitler early in his career. They were right to do so, and there are times we should as well. And there are times when, like the puritans and pilgrims, we may have to flee.
Martyrdom is a blessing of the church, but we should not seek martyrdom but continue to fight for freedom.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Where do you find a Bible basis for Christians fighting for political freedom?
I don't understand the relationship between being created in God's image and being promised life. Christians have been martyred all through history.
Our liberty is only in Christ. That exists no matter what the political climate. This has no connexion to political liberty.
'Joy unspeakable and full of glory' comes in serving God no matter what our circumstances. Often through history God has been glorified through the worst of persecutions. For an example might I suggest you look up the Edict of Toleration of 311 of which Will Durant writes, '"There is no greater drama in human record than the sight of a few Christians, scorned or oppressed by a succession of emperors, bearing all trials with a fierce tenacity, multiplying quietly, building order while their enemies generated chaos, fighting the sword with the word, brutality with hope, and at last defeating the strongest state that history has known. Caesar and Christ had met in the arena, and Christ had won.'
The idea of 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' is a result of 18th century rationalism. It is not a Bible based concept. We have become so used to being spoiled believers that we forget that only a tiny minority of the church has ever lived under a government which protects them. The norm in oppression, opposition, and persecution.
Why do we expect favour when the Bible tells is that 'those who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution?'
God's pleasures? Since when has the church lived for pleasure? Is not God pleased when His people glorify him in struggles?
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I believe in the sufficiency of Scripture, but traditionally the Bible addresses how people act specifically within the church and in principles outside the church. So, for instance, the Bible clearly gives all you need to do to worship God. We should not do anything other than what God commands. However, God does not deal with specifically how I am to act at my work. He, though, gives principles and standards of conduct. Thus, at work I fight for these principles in my company.
So, I would say that while there is no one fighting in the governmental structure in the New Testament. There is no one who is fighting for a just company in the New Testament. Yet, there are principles that if you have certain authority, you should fight try to uphold. Writing our public officials, voting, making our voice heard, and keeping our officials accountable may not ever be explicitly in the Bible, there are certainly principles that govern those acts.
From the beginning, because we were created in God's image guarantees us that murder is wrong because we should have the right to life. Yes, there are times in history where people were martyred, but in God's just society life is a right and denying that right is in violation of the 6th commandment, because we were created in God's image.
I disagree. Theologians throughout history have acknowledged that man, because of the creation covenant and are created in God's image, we are both under certain law but are protected by certain law. Life, God secured by condemning murder through his law. His law was given so we can be more happy, and God clearly defined the roles of governing authorities to clearly give us Liberty. I think a non-Christian has Liberty to marry. I think a non-Christian has Liberty to believe what he wants to believe. I think a non-Christian has Liberty to purchase property and to raise his family in how he wants. Yes, I believe governments have, at times, abridged such Liberties, but they are liberties granted by God to all people.
I agree, there have been times when God has used persecution to glorify himself. Yet, in this thread, I have been talking about an apparent step to the abridgment of those rights. I agree, martyrdom has been used as a glorious tool for God. However, we should not wish upon martyrdom and if we have the ability, should stay martyrdom. We should desire peace with all men, including our leaders. As well, as a Christian I should desire to worship God in peace. If I am able to help foster that peace with endorsing policies that would encourage peace, I will.
I do not think we are spoiled, I think we do believe this is how best a government should operate. Happiness is actually pre-rationalism. The puritans were adamant in our happiness and in the enjoyment of life.
Yes, people will be persecuted, that is descriptive. That does not mean we should seek persecution and give up saying that persecution is inevitable. We should not give up, but we should be willing to do what we can to ensure peace. What is wrong with that. I almost think you are disappointed that we are not being martyred.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your polite and reasonable reply.
My point it this, God never promised or implied that we had any right to expect fair treatment from the state. That is not the norm. The US, and indeed most of the West, has grown accustomed to what is not normal for the church throughout world history. We should not be at all surprised when the world hates us. Jesus said they would.
The church has historically weakened under government favour and strengthened under opposition. That is why I am not too concerned about how the state sees or treats us.
We will carry on. We will endure. And we might just be stronger.
As was said of Israel in Egypt - 'The more they afflicted them the more they multiplied and grew.'
My point it this, God never promised or implied that we had any right to expect fair treatment from the state. That is not the norm. The US, and indeed most of the West, has grown accustomed to what is not normal for the church throughout world history. We should not be at all surprised when the world hates us. Jesus said they would.
The church has historically weakened under government favour and strengthened under opposition. That is why I am not too concerned about how the state sees or treats us.
We will carry on. We will endure. And we might just be stronger.
As was said of Israel in Egypt - 'The more they afflicted them the more they multiplied and grew.'
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Agreed, as long as we do so with the dignity and respect toward authority that God directs in His word.
The *most* interesting one I learned was: We Americans go over there thinking that the Afghans actually need our help, that we need to teach them how to do everything.
Case 1: I was involved in a session to plan for the upcoming winter; we discussed the different things that we needed to talk to the Afghans about in order to get ready for the cold weather. When I took that list to the Afghan I was working with, he proceeded to add to the list with things we Americans don't normally consider (for example, how many of us still use car batteries that require changing of the water or acid content?). I went back to the original session with the question: Why aren't we asking the people who have lived here their entire lives what to do about getting ready for winter?
Case 2: The Afghan I worked with needed some equipment to get ready for the elections last year. Not understanding our procurement rules and laws, he had waited until the last minute to ask me. I let him know that I could order the items he needed, but it would be a minimum of 30 days before they arrived. The next day when we met, he let me know that he'd figured out a way to get it on his own.
See, the analogy is this: If I offer to buy you a soda and french fries, are you going to say no? (you might out of politeness, but work with me here, okay?) Most of will say "thank you." And that's exactly what the Afghans are doing. It's not that they can't do things for themselves; it's why should they, when we're so ready and willing to pay for and do it for them?
Other than that, we got a lot of requests from Afghans for immigration assistance. Some of them want to come to America and get educated, and take it back to their country. Some of them simply see America as a better place to live.