Pre-Trib Premillennial Rapture

[KenH]

www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?seriesOnly=true&sourceID=lvfpc& keyword=Eschatology&keyworddesc=Eschatology

The above link will take you to two excellent sermons by Stephen Hamilton on the theory of the pre-trib premillennial rapture, a view held by many Baptists. I urge all those who hold to this theory to listen thoughtfully and prayerfully to these sermons. We all must examine our beliefs, as did the Bereans, against what the Bible says. We all must be able to discard cherished beliefs when we learn that that are discordant with the truth of Scripture, if we wish to do the will of God.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken

[ June 06, 2002, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[hrhema]

There isn't a message one that a post trib- or mid trib person could present that would convince me against the pre-trib belief.

I suggest people read "Rapture Under Attack" by Tim LaHaye.

 

[Joy]

I went into college believing pre-trib because that is what I was always taught. I came out of college believing pre-trib, because I had studied each theory out for myself, and found that pre-trib still made the most sense.

 

[Daniel David]

I am dogmatically pre-trib, pre-mill. I discourage the reading of LaHaye any chance I get. It is because of people like him that make us look like fools. He is sensational and has too many inconsistensies to list.

 

[Mark-in-Tx]

I (an amelilennialist) have been reading the left behind series and love it. It is a great read.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by hrhema:
There isn't a message one that a post trib- or mid trib person could present that would convince me against the pre-trib belief.

Not exactly following the pattern of the Bereans, eh? Too bad, too sad, my friend.

In spite of all of the blood spilt by martyrs for the Christian faith for almost 2000 years, you think there is going to be a group that avoids all of that? They must be an awfully special bunch of Christians to be so privileged. But then again, maybe they are rewarded with less in Heaven than those who suffer for the faith.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken

[ June 06, 2002, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
In spite of all of the blood spilt by martyrs for the Christian faith for almost 2000 years, you think there is going to be a group that avoids all of that? They must be an awfully special bunch of Christians to be so privileged. But then again, maybe they are rewarded with less in Heaven than those who suffer for the faith.

Is this one of your exegetical arguments? I hardly think it holds weight in view of the testimony of Scritpure. There have been thousands and thousands of Christians down through the years who have suffered for their faith. They have lived long, faithful, and prosperous lives. So the answer to you question is yes, there already has been a group that avoided "all that" and there is no reason to doubt that there will be another.

Furthermore, the tribulation is called "The Time of Jacob's Trouble" for a reason. It is not aimed at believers but rather at Israel for the purpose of bringing Israel to repentance.

I too was brought up a pre-trib without being able to defend it. Now I am a pre-trib by conviction of exegesis. Sermons won't convince me because I have heard it all (or at least a lot of it). It just remains totally unconvincing.

 

[Kiffin]

I use to be dogmatic Pre Trib but the Pre Trib is a theory that often reads behind the lines. The fact is there is no scripture that teaches of

1. 7 year Tribulation
2. A Rebuilt Jerusalem Temple

The Pre Trib view was unheard of until the 1800's which cast doubt on it's credibilty. Of course all Tribulation and Millenial views are Theories. Tim Lahaye and many others have turned the Book of Revelation into a "Christian" Horror Novel that must rival Stephen King. That is a shame.

I personaly hold to a Amill view with a Postmill edge

but would basically call my self a Panmill (It will all pan out in the end). It should be noted that even Amills and Postmills in the past at times have turned Revelation into a "Christian" Horror" book in the same way Lahaye has done. I think however Posttrib is what the Bible teaches though I am not dogmatic on my Millenial views. Let's remember that the Jews had a completely wrong understanding of the 1st Coming of Christ and it would not suprise me if we are all off on the Second coming. As a seminary professer told me in class once, there are 3 things we know for sure about the Second Coming of Christ.

1. Christ is Coming again
2. We Don't know when
3. Be Ready

Too often today people are focusing on the coming of AntiChrist, computer chips as a Mark of the Beast, etc... that we miss the basic message.

1655 Midland Baptist Confession

 

[Daniel David]

Ken, you are not a very good Berean either, for you sound pretty settled on the issue yourself. Too bad.

How many times to you question the deity of Christ?

What about His resurrection?

Once you have come to know truth, you don't have to keep questioning it. So when you become pre-trib and stop Scripture twisting, you to will understand.

 

[LadyEagle]

The fact is there is no scripture that teaches of

1. 7 year Tribulation
2. A Rebuilt Jerusalem Temple

Huh??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????

My advice: Dig deeper! Compare Prophecy Scripture with Prophecy Scripture!

....still looking up & listening for that sweet trumpet sound! Hallelujah!

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye! Glorified Body, get Ready, I'ma coming!

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
How many times to you question the deity of Christ?

What about His resurrection?

Once you have come to know truth, you don't have to keep questioning it. So when you become pre-trib and stop Scripture twisting, you to will understand.

Acutally, I have tried to become a pre-trib, premillennialist as it would make my life easier considering my wife and practically everybody I go to church with are of that view. But I just do not find the necessary support for it in Scripture.

But surely you are not equating theories on the end-times, which you know there are a plethora of, with basics of the Christian faith. Outside of the basics of Christ's second coming(there is only a second coming promised, not a third), the rest is opinion, not a matter of the faith.

Amills, postmills, mid-tribs, post-tribs claim Scriptural support for their views as well.

After the second coming of Christ, then, and only then, will we know the facts of it.

I hope you pre-trib, premillennialists will be able to handle your disappointment concerning the facts.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken

 

[Daniel David]

Ken, your post sounds a little to much like postmodernism (i.e. nobody knows for sure, we will only know after the fact, all these opinions...). Do you really think that there isn't a single person who believes correctly?

By the way, the early church taught one way. There was not room to believe whatever you wanted. In fact, the author of Hebrews considered eschatology a BASIC Christian doctrine. Even Berkhof admits that the early church fathers where chiliastic (premillenial).

The rapture isn't seen by pre-tribbers as the second coming. That happens 7 years later. So we believe in only two comings also.

 

[hrhema]

The same old lie is being told on this thread that the pre-trib theory started in the 1800's. Why do people keep writing this when there has been post after post proving that this is not true. Even Athanasius believed in the pre-trib rapture in 300 A.D.

I don't understand at all why people get caught up with the martyrdom thing. The tribulation is not based on people being martyred. It is the wrath of God and the Lamb. Why would God pour out his wrath on his people? Come on people, open your eyes and understand the tribulation is the pouring out of the anger and judgement of almighty God.

This is to be punishment on the wicked and those who take the mark of the beast. Yes, there will be those who will be martyred but it will be those who missed the Rapture and those who come to know Christ during the Tribulation. They will pay the cost of their rejection of Christ before the rapture.

 

[KenH]

Frankly, I find it very, very hard to believe that dispensationalists really think that their opinion is THE WAY to understand eschatology. The early church was not dispensational in its understanding. Certainly the New Testament writers were not. The futurist understanding of eschatology got its jump start from Catholic priests during the Reformation in their attempt to deflect the Reformers' view that the man of sin is embodied in the office of the papacy. Darby grabbed the idea in the 1800s, Hal Lindsey popularized it with the people in the pew with The Late Great Planet Earth and Tim LaHaye took it to its extreme with the Left Behind Series(which I have heard equated with the Bible.

I do remember hearing about an event from the 1st Century of the church when a fella that taught a theory similar to premillennialism came into a building where the apostle John was and he fled out of it lest the building come down while John was in it. So much for the idea that the early church was premillennial in its eschatology.

Sorry, but sometimes you just have to face the facts. And facts can be really tough on one's predispositions.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by hrhema:
There isn't a message one that a post trib- or mid trib person could present that would convince me against the pre-trib belief.

I suggest people read "Rapture Under Attack" by Tim LaHaye.

2 Tim 4:1 ¶ I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

That's too bad. I'd like to think I'm open to correction by the Word preached, if indeed I was holding to error.

The Reason LaHaye wrote ""Rapture Under Attack" is because evangelicals, who are finally reading and understanding their Bibles like never before, are leaving the pretrib-premil camp in droves. (Not to mention equally motivating for him is the financial loss to the Left Behind kingdom once people realize it is just evangelical fantasy )

 

[Daniel David]

Chris, the Bible also says that in the last days, men will not endure sound doctrine. To say that people are leaving a pretrib position due to understanding their Bibles is questionable if not totally wrong. Open theism is a growing movement. Are we to attribute it to evangelicals reading and understanding their Bibles like never before?

 

[hrhema]

Peter said in the Last days scoffers would arise who would say that we have heard about his coming for ages and where is it.

The reason two of you are attacking LaHaye is because he is not Baptist. He did not write the book to protect the Left Behind Series.

As far as people flocking to another theory is not what the latest polls in many magazines have shown.

As far as some guy coming to the church when the Apostle John was there I have news for you. Athansius is the Father of the Doctrine of the Trinity. He is the one who brought this doctrine to the forefront at the Council of Nicea and Trent where the majority of Christianity bases their beliefs. H

 

[hrhema]

Peter said in the Last days scoffers would arise who would say that we have heard about his coming for ages and where is it.

The reason two of you are attacking LaHaye is because he is not Baptist. He did not write the book to protect the Left Behind Series.

As far as people flocking to another theory is not what the latest polls in many magazines have shown.

As far as some guy coming to the church when the Apostle John was there I have news for you. Athansius is the Father of the Doctrine of the Trinity. He is the one who brought this doctrine to the forefront at the Council of Nicea and Trent where the majority of Christianity bases their beliefs. He was a student of Polycarp who was a student of the Apostle John. There has been proof that even Polycarp believed in a pre-trib coming of the Lord. Where would he have gotten that belief from? From the one who wrote the Book of Revelation and knew the truth.

I have spent years studying eschatology and prophecy and nothing I have read has convinced me of a mid trib or post trib rapture.

I have read threads where people say they could not worship a God who would put any conditions on salvation because that would be unfair and unjust but will believe that this same God is going to pour his wrath out on the church.

Anytime you see that God poured his judgement on Israel it was because they were apostate. They were into idolatry and other great sins. yet people want me to believe that God is going to force his people to suffer the terror of the Great Tribulation. To suffer the trumpets and vials of wrath being poured out.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by hrhema:
The same old lie is being told on this thread that the pre-trib theory started in the 1800's. Why do people keep writing this when there has been post after post proving that this is not true. Even Athanasius believed in the pre-trib rapture in 300 A.D.

There has NOT been post after post "proving" that this is not true. There has not even been a single post! There HAVE been posts *stating* it is not true, but I have REPEATEDLY asked for quotes and references on this forum for ANY pretrib support before the 1800s - none have yet been supplied.

Thomas Cassidy has claimed there is some, but my NUMEROUS attempts at getting him to be specific have all been avoided and ignored, and I can only conclude he was bluffing and too ashamed to admit it. One person sent me a private message containing a quote from the Shepard of Hermas, but there was nothing pretrib in it, though I *sort-of* see how one might read pretrib into it if one really, really wanted to.

*Please* post your Athanasius quote, and/or any other pre-1800 quotes you can. Not just you, hrhema, but ANYONE.

[ June 06, 2002, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by hrhema:
Peter said in the Last days scoffers would arise who would say that we have heard about his coming for ages and where is it.

I don't think that non-pretrib premills are saying that Christ isn't coming again. Where do you get that idea from?

The reason two of you are attacking LaHaye is because he is not Baptist. He did not write the book to protect the Left Behind Series.

I didn't know he wasn't a Baptist. What is he?

As far as people flocking to another theory is not what the latest polls in many magazines have shown.

I would rather stand with Scriptural truth than any majority on any subject.

As far as some guy coming to the church when the Apostle John was there I have news for you. Athansius is the Father of the Doctrine of the Trinity. He is the one who brought this doctrine to the forefront at the Council of Nicea and Trent where the majority of Christianity bases their beliefs.

As someone with an interest in history, is that available on the Internet somewhere?

Thanks.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken

[ June 06, 2002, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]