Predestination unto salvation

[JonC]

Election is from all eternity but it occurs in time through what is referred to as the effectual call. Acts 2:39 is saying the promise contained in the Gospel is for you (those hearing Peter's words, your children (their posterity), all who are far off (the nations), and "as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself" (those elect or predestined to eternal life who had not yet heard the gospel message).

Thank you for your reply. This is a good example of what some would call "corporate election" (God choosing for Himself a people). As the context here is predestination I have a couple of questions.

How do you define "election"? Is it in terms of God choosing or God calling? Or do you think that there is a distinction?

I ask because it seems that you are saying election is both the choosing and the calling of the chosen. Personally I find it troublesome to think of God as having to choose (it seems to attribute human qualities that are less than perfect to God). But that's another topic.

 

[Iconoclast]

Election is from all eternity but it occurs in time through what is referred to as the effectual call. Acts 2:39 is saying the promise contained in the Gospel is for you (those hearing Peter's words, your children (their posterity), all who are far off (the nations), and "as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself" (those elect or predestined to eternal life who had not yet heard the gospel message).

Yes Reformed,
2tim2:9-10 Paul rejoices that he suffers trouble in order that the elect may obtain the salvation found in Jesus.
He knows God saves individual sinners through means. God knows each elect individual by name.
No false ideas of a corporate election of no one in particular. No, it is the foreknown elect who are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus.

 

[JonC]

Yes Reformed,
2tim2:9-10 Paul rejoices that he suffers trouble in order that the elect may obtain the salvation found in Jesus.
He knows God saves individual sinners through means. God knows each elect individual by name.
No false ideas of a corporate election of no one in particular. No, it is the foreknown elect who are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus.

I see you edited your post (which is fine, we all should edit our posts to best communicate our intentions).

To clarify my previous agreement (I do not agree with the altered post but the original).

I agree with the statement that Paul rejoices that he suffers trouble in order that the elect may obtain the salvation found in Jesus. I do not agree with the edited version of your post (I agreed with the original).

The reason is that Scripture never refers to the elect as those who do not believe.

I believe those who will be saved and those who will be condemned are both predestined to that fate. But I do not believe we can refer to the lost as being elect.

 

[Reformed]

Thank you for your reply. This is a good example of what some would call "corporate election" (God choosing for Himself a people). As the context here is predestination I have a couple of questions.

How do you define "election"? Is it in terms of God choosing or God calling? Or do you think that there is a distinction?

I ask because it seems that you are saying election is both the choosing and the calling of the chosen. Personally I find it troublesome to think of God as having to choose (it seems to attribute human qualities that are less than perfect to God). But that's another topic.

The Bible is replete with anthropomorphisms. Does God truly express emotions? Is Jesus a door and a loaf of bread? Does God really choose as humans choose? Anthropomorphisms are used so the reader can understand. God chooses through His sovereign will of decree. Election is both corporate (a people of God) and personal (individuals). When I get home I can provide relevant passages that prove election is both corporate personal. Corporate election is not as the esteemed Leighton Flowers claims it is. God does not call or establish a people and then populate that community with those who choose Him. Again, I am limited to my resources right now but can dive in deeper tonight.

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[Reformed]

But I do not believe we can refer to the lost as being elect.

Those "lost" who are not appointed unto eternal life (Acts 13:48) are certainly not elect. But those appointed to eternal life that have not yet come to faith are still elect because election is from eternity. When the effectual call occurs, that is when their election from eternity becomes justification in time.



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[Yeshua1]

Thank you for your reply. This is a good example of what some would call "corporate election" (God choosing for Himself a people). As the context here is predestination I have a couple of questions.

How do you define "election"? Is it in terms of God choosing or God calling? Or do you think that there is a distinction?

I ask because it seems that you are saying election is both the choosing and the calling of the chosen. Personally I find it troublesome to think of God as having to choose (it seems to attribute human qualities that are less than perfect to God). But that's another topic.

Actually, we Calvinists see it in terms of Individual election, while Non cals use terms like corporate election! As in the plan, or the church was elect, but not each person!

 

[Yeshua1]

Those "lost" who are not appointed unto eternal life (Acts 13:48) are certainly not elect. But those appointed to eternal life that have not yet come to faith are still elect because election is from eternity. When the effectual call occurs, that is when their election from eternity becomes justification in time.



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Yes, as there shall come to each one of them a time when they make their election and calling sure!

 

[Yeshua1]

I see you edited your post (which is fine, we all should edit our posts to best communicate our intentions).

To clarify my previous agreement (I do not agree with the altered post but the original).

I agree with the statement that Paul rejoices that he suffers trouble in order that the elect may obtain the salvation found in Jesus. I do not agree with the edited version of your post (I agreed with the original).

The reason is that Scripture never refers to the elect as those who do not believe.

I believe those who will be saved and those who will be condemned are both predestined to that fate. But I do not believe we can refer to the lost as being elect.

God directly determined the elect unto salvation, but not those who are in hell in like fashion!

 

[JonC]

Actually, we Calvinists see it in terms of Individual election, while Non cals use terms like corporate election! As in the plan, or the church was elect, but not each person!

Many Calvinists would disagree.

I know several who see the church as the elect (corporate election) and even Israel as a chosen people.

 

[Yeshua1]

Many Calvinists would disagree.

I know several who see the church as the elect (corporate election) and even Israel as a chosen people.

I have never read that in my studies among reformed/Calvinist though, as that would be popular among those like author Elect in the Son!

 

[robycop3]

I believe some were and are predestined by God for special service to Him, such as Abraham, Moses, Jeremiah, & Jesus' disciples.

But I do NOT believe anyone is predestined for hell. God is perfectly JUST. What kind of justification would doom someone to eternal damnation before he/she is old enough to realize right from wrong?

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe some were and are predestined by God for special service to Him, such as Abraham, Moses, Jeremiah, & Jesus' disciples.

But I do NOT believe anyone is predestined for hell. God is perfectly JUST. What kind of justification would doom someone to eternal damnation before he/she is old enough to realize right from wrong?

actually, we all are already condemned in Adam, due to the fall, but God did not determine that we all go to hell, its just that unless Jesus saves you, we all are born heading that way!

 

[JonC]

I have never read that in my studies among reformed/Calvinist though, as that would be popular among those like author Elect in the Son!

I do not know about Reformed, but I know many Calvinists who believe the Church as a whole is God's elect people ("the elect").

For an example read Spurgeon's sermons n "Choice Portions" (one of my favorites).

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not know about Reformed, but I know many Calvinists who believe the Church as a whole is God's elect people ("the elect").

For an example read Spurgeon's sermons n "Choice Portions" (one of my favorites).

yes, but he would have held to individual election of each person now in the Church!

 

[JonC]

yes, but he would have held to individual election of each person now in the Church!

I never said otherwise. I am saying I have met many Calvinists who affirm corporate election.

 

[Yeshua1]

I never said otherwise. I am saying I have met many Calvinists who affirm corporate election.

I just do not think that we would use that terminology, as that is more to how arminians would refer to God saving out a corporate Body, the Church, but each one free wills themselves into her!

 

[Reformed]

I do not know about Reformed, but I know many Calvinists who believe the Church as a whole is God's elect people ("the elect").

For an example read Spurgeon's sermons n "Choice Portions" (one of my favorites).

From the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 26: "Of the Church"

1._____ The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
( Hebrews 12:23; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:10, 22, 23; Ephesians 5:23, 27, 32 )

The body of Christ ("the elect", "the Church", "the universal church") consists of the whole number of the elect that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ. This means all those who were saved, are saved, and will be saved are saved in Christ. So, yes, all elect people constitute "the Elect". "The Elect" is the corporate identity of God's people but elect persons are those who are part of the Elect. As I said in post #64, "God does not call or establish a people and then populate that community with those who choose Him." God chose individuals and they make up the Elect ("the Church", "the body").

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[George Antonios]

predestined to eternal life

There is no such thing anywhere in the scriptures. No verse can be presented saying that.

 

[Iconoclast]

I see you edited your post (which is fine, we all should edit our posts to best communicate our intentions).

To clarify my previous agreement (I do not agree with the altered post but the original).

I agree with the statement that Paul rejoices that he suffers trouble in order that the elect may obtain the salvation found in Jesus. I do not agree with the edited version of your post (I agreed with the original).

The reason is that Scripture never refers to the elect as those who do not believe.

I believe those who will be saved a3434nd those who will be condemned are both predestined to that fate. But I do not believe we can refer to the lost as being elect.

We all believe many things.
The elect sheep are the object of the Great Shepherd in Ezk34.
They belong to Him and He vows to search and seek them out.
They belong to Him from before the world was.
He knows those who are His.They are His because of the giving of the Father in the Covenant of Redemption.
Those elect individuals are spoken of as the ones predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son rom8:29-30.
To deny this is to deny biblical revelation.

 

[George Antonios]

That is a good point. There are also no verses that speak of someone who does not yet believe as being chosen or elected to salvation. Ideas like unconditional election are reasoned out from Scripture (they are not taught in or by Scripture but deducted from Scripture via human understanding to answer questions not exactly addressed in the Bible).

That's one of the most honest replies I've gotten. If other Calvinists on the board could face that truth the conversations would be more fruitful. I realize that you, and many others, will nevertheless insist that Calvinism is still true, because, as you said, it can still be "deducted from Scripture via human understanding to answer questions not exactly addressed in the Bible" and that's a fair point to make; I'm not gloating in what you said as if I had won a point, I'm simply appreciating the honesty of your words.