God is Sovereign.
You might say that my box (as far as this issue is concerned) has very loose boundaries. I recognize that the Bible presents God as Sovereign. I also recognize that the Bible presents God as wanting to reconcile all men to Himself. I see in the Bible that God also holds man responsible for his choices. I don't try to make them all fit in a box because I can't. Obviously, from the presentation of all these themes in Scripture God means for us to accept all of these revelations about Him.
A better name for this thread according to my understanding would be predestination and free will.
In the love of Christ,
Tim
predestnation vs free will
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by BornagainBeliever, Nov 5, 2003.
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Tim Too,
So you don't have an interpretation of John 6:37?
In Christ,
Bobby -
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. John 6:37 NIV
God is sovereign. God is the author and perfector of our salvation. I see that those who come to salvation in Jesus do not have a boast in that salvation. What I do not see in this verse is that God doesn't offer salvation to all men.
There are stronger verses to show that God elects unto salvation. I do not deny that the Bible reveals God as electing unto salvation. What I also do not deny is that the Bible reveals that God desires for all men to come to repentance and this is the very thing that you deny.
What do you do with this verse?
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Romans 11:32 NIV
In the love of Christ,
Tim -
Maybe I need to be more specific
“Who” are the ones given to Jesus by the Father?
Second of all, I would love to discuss this verse with you. I must mention again that context is king. All these verse you are citing look nice until you look at the context. That is why I would like to discuss each one ‘individually’ with you.
Im sure your aware that the word “all” can have different meanings, depending on the context.
For example, look at Mark 1:4. Also look at 1 Cor. 12:13, Does All mean everybody? Or just Christians?
Context!
Lets read Romans 11:28-32 in context.
(28)As concerning the gospel, they (JEWS) are enemies for your (GENTILES) sakes: but as touching the election, they (Jews) are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
(29)For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance
(30)For as ye (GENTILES)in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (JEWS) unbelief
(31)Even so have these (JEWS) also now not believed, that through your (GENTILES) mercy they (JEWS) also may obtain mercy.
(32)For God hath concluded them all (JEWS) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (NOT JUST JEWS, GENTILES ALSO).
Again, your “proof text” falls in light of the immediate context. You can clearly see from the context that Pauls point is that now God has mercy upon “all” , meaning “Not Just JEWS”. Your usage of the word “all” is not found in this context.
In Christ,
Bobby -
From the context the "who" are those the Father gives to Jesus.
Looks like you are going to see what you are going to see and you can say the same about me so let's drop it.
In the love of Christ,
Tim -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
I would say that the following verses mean all men without exception:
The following also apply to all without exception:
The following cannot be construed as all without exception.
Was Paul the servant of all ? Was Paul a servant of unsaved men of his time ?
This verse, again, means all without exception:
This scripture does not mean an all-inclusive "all"
This verse also does not mean "all" as in all mankind:
Finally, the Holy Spirit is the One who regenerates. The Father chose, the Son redeemed, the Spirit regenerates. Why should the Holy Spirit draw all men without exception to Christ, when "there are three that bear record in Heaven, and these three are one " ? One God, One Purpose, One Will.
For the Spirit now to draw all men to Christ is to go against the will of the Father who elected a people unto Himself, and the will of the Son, who saved His people from their sins.
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pinoybaptist,
I am not going to quibble with you about what every use of "all" means. I will agree that evidently in some instances Paul used hyperbole, but not all. You have, therefore the luxury of doing away with every ALL that does not fit you theology.
In the verses that pertain to salvation where he used ALL do you think that Paul (the Calvinist as you would have him) did not know a Greek word for some?
In the love of Christ,
Tim -
Text in [] mine:
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pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
Remember that the Jews considered themselves superior to Gentiles, because to them were entrusted the oracles of God, as a people. Therefore, Paul used all in the sense of conveying that there is no more distinction between men, and that God had always had his people among all men.
Jesus Himself refutes your position that the Holy Spirit draws all men to Christ when He said:
One cannot take one word that seems to imply that God loves all men and wants all men to be saved and forget other verses that deal with God's holiness, sovereignty, power, might, wisdom, and of man's depravity, fallen nature, sinfulness, and pride. -
I don't forget about God's sovereignty. I recognize that He elects unto salvation. I recognize that the Bible reveals that God desires for all men to be repent and be saved. Both are in there. Even though I can't, in my limited knowledge, make the two fit I gladly accept both.
In the love of Christ,
Tim -
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. 1 Timothy 2:1-6 NIV
Here is another "generalization" of Paul's that I have ripped out of context. What do you say about it?
In the love of Christ,
Tim -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
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This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. 1 Timothy 2:1-6 NIV
pinoybaptist,
Thanks for setting me straight on that precept thing. From the context it doesn't look like it was too good for those it was written about.
Here is a verse (posted earlier) that shows God wanting to reconcile all men to Himself. Though it doesn't specifically have the word reconcile in it I believe that you would agree that what it means to be reconciled to God is present in this verse.
In the love of Christ,
Tim -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
Tim Too:
Again, it is not all men as in every single human being, elect or unelect. To say so, and then elect some to salvation, and leave out others, would be to say that God merely made salvation a possibility to others and a sure event to others, or, to make it more consistent with what you would like the verse to mean, to make of salvation an offer which is 'of him that runneth' when Scripture clearly says, 'it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy' (Romans 9:16).
Here is part of John Gill's exposition on this verse
The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in (1 Timothy 2:1) are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world,Click to expand... -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
IMO the whole Calvinism/ Arminianism thing is a collosal red herring and waste of energy. It stems not from the Bible but from Augustine's Promethean wrangles with Pelagius in the 410s. Now, I am in no way sying that Pelagius was right - he wasn't -but Augustine was heavily influenced by Platonic dualism - paganism - and this, combined with the polarisation of positions during the polemic of his his fight with Pelagius, caused him to adopt a strict 'either/or' position on soteriology - either Man as saved by his own efforts, or it was entirely God's work. If the latter, then it followed that (a) Man has no choice about his salvation or damnation and (b) God creates some to be destined for salvation and others for damnation. Thus we see the influence of pagan rhetorical technique in the early Catholic church.
The truth of the matter is that God is much bigger than either extreme, and can embrace both 'opposites' in tension, The nearest I can get in explaining it is to say that, yes, I have free will, but that is finite and small, and pales into insignificance compared to God's infinite Will.
I find it odd and slightly disturbing that this debate seems to consume Christians who otherwise profess to be sola scriptura when neither Arminianism nor Augustinian-Calvinist determinism are found in Scripture; both Augustine and Calvin were into determinism which, like its counterpoint, Arminiamism, is the child of Platonic dualism rather than the Scriptures.
THe point is that both sides can cite Scripture to back up their positions, and can easily twist the Scriptures that contradict them into making them say what they want them to say; for example, a Calvinist might want to twist the a Calvinist might want to twist the quote from 2 Pet 3:9 by saying 'all' means 'all who are already saved', and there are of course verses that Calvinists quote with approval that Arminians have to twist to justify their POV. Both amount to an abuse of Scripture; instead of adopting a position that was first expounded long after the NT was written, whether it be the 5th century in the case of Augustinian determinism or the 17th in the case of Arminianism, and then trying to make Scripture fit that view, we should allow Scripture, and solely Scripture, to shape our views and make our views fit with Scripture
Yours in Christ
Matt -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
PS 1000 posts! Woo-hoo!
(Sorry )
Yours in Christ
Matt -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by Matt Black:
PS 1000 posts! Woo-hoo!
(Sorry )
Yours in Christ
MattClick to expand... -
Originally posted by Tim too:
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. 1 Timothy 2:1-6 NIV
Here is another "generalization" of Paul's that I have ripped out of context. What do you say about it?
In the love of Christ,
TimClick to expand...
Anyway, here's the same basic section from YLT (Young's Literal):
1 I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men:
2 for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity,
3 for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour,
4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
5 for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times --
7 in regard to which I was set a preacher and apostle -- truth I say in Christ, I do not lie -- a teacher of nations, in faith and truth.Click to expand...
1 I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men:
2 for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity,
3 for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour,Click to expand...
IMO, whether or not God wills all men who ever lived to be saved is not what is being addressed by this passage. In other words, this passage proves neither one side nor the other.
But your interpretation does beg the question: if God wills that all men who ever live to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, then how can it be that not all men who ever live are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth? Can man thwart God's will? -
Originally posted by npetreley:
But your interpretation does beg the question: if God wills that all men who ever live to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, then how can it be that not all men who ever live are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth? Can man thwart God's will?Click to expand...
In the love of Christ,
Tim -
NPETERELY,
Thanks for saving me they type by explaining the "context". All these verse that Tim Too is citing fall to the ground with context.
Tim Too,
Maybe I missed your answer but who are the ones given to the Father in John 6:37? May I also add, you are offering absolutely "NO" exegetical responses to the passages that you are using. Maybe because your interpretation is traditional rather than Biblical.
In Christ,
Bobby
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