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Preterism Proof

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by robycop3, Oct 28, 2017.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I received a request from "Saint of Circumstance" to create a thread in this forum, as he couldn't respond to the discussions in the "Baptists Only" forums. So, here we go.

    I say preterism is phony as a Ford Corvette. The prophesied eschatological events have simply not yet occurred, as is quite-obvious. The ONLY way preterism could be proven true is to prove those events have already occurred, and that's not gonna happen!

    I am a fundy indy Baptist, complying to another member's request, so let's see you non-Baptists' "take" on preterism.

    (Moderators - if you decide this is not the appropriate sub-forum for this thread & choose to move it, please let me know.)
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ALL they would have to do to persuade me is to show where in history the second coming happened, and when the saints alive and dead in Christ were resurrected!
     
  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Yeshua 1, the "partial" preterists at least admit the 2nd coming hasn't yet happened. However, "partial" is just-as-false as "full" preterism because Jesus said, in Matt. 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

    So, if the great trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue!

    Unbelievably, some prets argue these verses aren't literal because stars don't fall from the sky! How absurd! Jesus knew, of course, that "falling star" was a common term for "meteor", a term still in use today. (Perry Como sang "Catch a falling star & put it in your pocket".) Jesus was using terminology His audience understood, with the emphasis being on His return, not an astronomy lesson.

    If preterism is true, I'm still wondering when the sky rained 100 lb. rocks, when all green grass was burned up, & when all life in the seas was killed. (Even as I munch some tuna!)
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    And when the Resurrection of the Body of Christ , the church, happened!
     
  5. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    So, if the great trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue!

    Spurgeon thought it had occurred:

    Matthew 24:19-21. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: for then shall be great tribulation, such at was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    "You and I would have believed that all this came true without any confirmation from outside history, but it was very remarkable that God should raise up the Jew Josephus, and put it into his mind to write a record of the siege of Jerusalem, which curdles the blood of everyone who reads it, and exactly bears out the statement of the Master that there was to be “great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be.”

    Spurgeon the heretic!


    Unbelievably, some prets argue these verses aren't literal because stars don't fall from the sky! How absurd! Jesus knew, of course, that "falling star" was a common term for "meteor", a term still in use today.

    Any scriptural proof for this? Does it always mean this in scripture?


    (Perry Como sang "Catch a falling star & put it in your pocket".) Jesus was using terminology His audience understood, with the emphasis being on His return, not an astronomy lesson.


    So Jesus used Hebrew idioms? Welcome to the club. Perhaps those Jews also understood idioms like "heaven and earth" and "coming in the clouds". Do you think His audience also understood those deep theological words like "soon, near, at hand, and quickly"?



    If preterism is true, I'm still wondering when the sky rained 100 lb. rock

    Read the "War of the Jews by Josephus"



    Matthew 24 Fulfilled

    Sun, Moon, and Stars

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days

    the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give

    its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the

    powers of the heavens will be shaken.(Matthew 24:29)


    At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus said, the

    universe will collapse: the light of the sun and the

    moon will be extinguished, the stars will fall, the

    powers of the heavens will be shaken. The basis for

    this symbolism is in Genesis 1:14-16, where the sun,

    moon, and stars (“the powers of the heavens”) are

    spoken of as “signs” which “govern” the world. Later

    in Scripture, these heavenly lights are used to speak

    of earthly authorities and governors; and when God

    threatens to come against them in judgment, the same

    collapsing-universe terminology is used to describe

    it. Prophesying the fall of Babylon to the Medes in

    539 B. C., Isaiah wrote:


    Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with

    fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation;

    And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the

    stars of heaven and their constellations Will not

    flash forth with their light; The sun will be dark

    when it rises, And the moon will not shed its light

    (Isaiah 13:9-10).


    Significantly, Isaiah later prophesied the fall of

    Edom in terms of de-creation:


    And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky

    will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will

    also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or

    as one withers from the fig tree (Isaiah 34:4),


    Isaiah’s contemporary, the prophet Amos, foretold

    the doom of Samaria (722 B.C.) in much the same way:


    “And it will come about in that day,” Declares the

    Lord GOD, “That I shall make the sun go down at noon

    And make the earth dark in broad daylight” (Amos 8:9).


    Another example is from the prophet Ezekiel, who

    predicted the destruction of Egypt. God said this

    through Ezekiel:


    “And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens,

    and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a

    cloud, And the moon shall not give its light. All the

    shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you

    And will set darkness on your land,” Declares the Lord

    GOD (Ezekiel 32:7-8).


    It must be stressed that none of these events

    literally took place. God did not intend anyone to

    place a literalist construction on these statements.

    Poetically, however, all these things did happen: as

    far as these wicked nations were concerned, "the

    lights went out." This is simply figurative language,

    which would not surprise us at all if we were more

    familiar with the Bible and appreciative of its

    literary character.


    What Jesus is saying in Matthew 24, therefore, in

    prophetic terminology immediately recognizable by his

    disciples, is that the light of Israel is going to be

    extinguished; the covenant nation will cease to exist.

    When the Tribulation is over, old Israel will be gone.
     
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  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Typical preterist duck-n-dodge, Grasshopper. You know all the prophesied events in daniel 9, Jesus' Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24 & Luke 21, and the prophecies of Revelation have NOT yet been fulfilled, so you try to reduce those "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" language, or try to shoehorn in some other events & claim they're "fulfillment".

    The Romans launching rocks with catapults or some men imagining they saw chariots in the sky among the clouds (a game children have played since there's been both kids & clouds) is hardly a fulfillment of prophecy, especially those made by Jesus Himself.

    Now, were all the prophecies about Jesus' first coming fulfilled LITERALLY or not?
    In the Olivet Discourse, were J & the temple LITERALLY destroyed, or not?
    Is there war/rumor of war, or not?
    Was, and is, Jerusalem being LITERALLY trod underfoot by gentiles, or not?
    Are Christians beintg LITERALLY persecuted, with decapitations, or not?

    In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus' disciples had asked Him some questions, and He answered them in plain talk, not in parables or metaphors, simple as THAT.

    So, reducing Scriptures that prove preterism false to "figurative/symbolic" status is simply WRONG.

    Preterism was, and is, phony as a Ford Corvette!
     
  7. Saint of Circumstance

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    Thanks Roby!

    I'll start by reminding everyone that ALL Bible believing Christians are preterist, we only vary by degree.

    All Bible believing Christians affirm that at least SOME last days prophesy was fulfilled in the apostles generation, for Scripture testifies such:

    Hebrews 1
    1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by HisSon, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

    Acts 2
    14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

    17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
    That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
    Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    Your young men shall see visions,
    Your old men shall dream dreams.
    18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
    I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
    And they shall prophesy.

    1 Corinthians 10
    Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

     
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  8. Saint of Circumstance

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    Consistency Daniel-san..
    Explain David's account of His defeat of Saul please. Don't forget to provide CONCRETE PROOF of these things LITERALLY happening, otherwise your objections are moot:

    Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He WAS SEEN on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)

    Isaiah 7:14
    Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.


    Wait... you just claimed above that "The prophesied events in daniel 9, Jesus' Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24 & Luke 21, and the prophecies of Revelation have NOT yet been fulfilled,"
    Now you claim SOME were?

    More evidence of your onw partial preterism i guess Roby.

    So the Parable of the Fig tree is not a parable after all?

    When did this passage get fulfilled:

    Matthew 21:33-45
    33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

    40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

    41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

    42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

    ‘The stone which the builders rejected
    Has become the chief cornerstone.
    This was the Lord’s doing,
    And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

    43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

    45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

    Or Are we still waiting for this to occur?
     
    #8 Saint of Circumstance, Oct 30, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
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  9. Saint of Circumstance

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    If the Bible is true, why aren't you likewise wondering when these things LITERALLY happened at the time Assyria Conqured Samaria & Jerusalem in 721BCE?? (Micah 1) :

    1 The word of the Lord that came to Micah of Moresheth in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.

    The Coming Judgment on Israel
    2 Hear, all you peoples!
    Listen, O earth, and all that is in it!
    Let the Lord God be a witness against you,
    The Lord from His holy temple.

    3 For behold, the Lord is coming out of His place;
    He will come down
    And tread on the high places of the earth.
    4 The mountains will melt under Him,
    And the valleys will split
    Like wax before the fire,

    Like waters poured down a steep place.
    5 All this is for the transgression of Jacob
    And for the sins of the house of Israel.
    What is the transgression of Jacob?
    Is it not Samaria?
    And what are the high places of Judah?
    Are they not Jerusalem?

    6 “Therefore I will make Samaria a heap of ruins in the field,
    Places for planting a vineyard;
    I will pour down her stones into the valley,
    And I will uncover her foundations.
    7 All her carved images shall be beaten to pieces,
    And all her pay as a harlot shall be burned with the fire;
    All her idols I will lay desolate,
    For she gathered it from the pay of a harlot,
    And they shall return to the pay of a harlot.”

    Have you read Ezekiel 32?
    According to Ezekiel, the stars went out when Babylon invaded Egypt and watered all the land and filled all the rivers with Pharaoh's Blood.

    See these fulfilled prophecies and note the common language in each:

    *Micah 1:1-9 -- Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem
    *Nahum 1:1-8 -- Nineveh's doom
    *Zephaniah 1:1-10,14-18 -- Judgment against Judah
    *2 Samuel 22:8-16 -- destruction of Saul's kingdom
    *Ezekiel 32:1-12 -- Judgment against Egypt by Babylon

    In each of these fulfilled passages, we read all of the common language to describe Jehovah's comings:

    *the destruction of earth
    *the bowing of the heavens
    *the melting of the mountains like wax
    *the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
    *the wiping away of every living thing
    *blood as high as the mountains
    *the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
    *Etc. etc.

    Show us the evidence of this LITERALLY happening.
     
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  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Excellent point. Thank you.
     
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  11. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    It is not Spurgeon who is the heretic.

    Jacob didn't believe stars in prophecy referred to stars or meteors, Neither did John in Revelation.
     
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  12. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Robycob follows Jesuit futurism theories.
     
  13. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    1“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3Those who are wisea will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

    5Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”

    7The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.b When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

    When was the Power of The holy people broken? When when the covenant broken?
     
  14. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    I knew when I saw that you posted this:

    "I am a fundy indy Baptist"

    I was wasting my time, but I foolishly continued. My bad for thinking you were really interested in a conversation.
     
  15. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Daniel 9 was completely fulfilled in Christ,

    You are as ignorant as Donald Trump
     
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Spurgeon was Post-Trib. Charles Spurgeon believed that the Rapture and Resurrection would happen at the same time after the great tribulation.

    Spurgeon believed that the church would go through the
    totality of the tribulation, but be protected.

    "The burning earth shall be the torch to light up the wedding procession;
    the quivering of the heavens shall be, as it were, but as a dancing of the
    feet of angels in those glorious festivities, and the booming and crashing
    of the elements shall, somehow, only help to swell the outburst of praise
    unto God the just and terrible, who is to our exceeding joy." (Charles H. Spurgeon, "Jesus Christ Immutable," in The Metropolitan Tabernacle
    Pulpit 42:607)

    Brethren, no truth ought to be more frequently proclaimed, next to the
    first coming of the Lord, than his second coming; and you cannot
    thoroughly set forth all of the ends and bearings of the first advent if you
    forget the second. At the Lord's Supper, there is no discerning the
    Lord's body unless you discern his first coming; but there is no drinking
    into his cup to its fulness, unless you hear him say, "Until I Come." You
    must look forward, as well as backward. So it must be with all our
    ministries; they must look to him on the cross and on the throne. We
    must vividly realize that he, who has once come, is coming yet again, or
    else our testimony will be marred, and one-sided. We shall make lame
    work of preaching and teaching if we leave out either advent. (Spurgeon, "He Cometh With Clouds," in The Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit
    33:592-93)

    See: THE MILLENNIAL POSITION OF SPURGEON by Dennis M. Swanson, The Master's Seminary Journal, 7/2 (Fall 1996) 183-212.

    https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj7g.pdf
     
  17. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Matthew 24 Commentary - Spurgeon's Verse Expositions of the Bible
     
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    That was the last days of THE OLD COVENANT. The earth itself went right on, same as it has since man was created.
     
  20. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    First, the DOCTRINE of preterism is about the ESCHATOLOGICAL events, not ALL Biblical prophecy.

    From the merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:



    And if you read the whole chapter, 2 Sam. 22, you should see David had written a SONG. And this was about the time Saul sought to kill David, not the end of Saul's reign.

    David used "artist's license" in his songs, same as songwriters do now. this is evident in many of his psalms. yes, there were prophecies in some of them, but their main purpose was to praise God, and entertain an Israeli audience.

    Now, you don't have one quark of PROOF that the eschatological events Jesus prophesied in the Olivet Discourse have already occurred. The great trib has NOT yet happened, and Jesus certainly hasn't returned in the manner HE HIMSELF prophesied.
     
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